One D&D Expert Classes Playtest Document Is Live

The One D&D Expert Class playest document is now available to download. You can access it by signing into your D&D Beyond account at the link below. It contains three classes -- bard, rogue, and ranger, along with three associated subclasses (College of Lore, Thief, and Hunter), plus a number of feats.

One D&D Playtest

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[Minigiant]

I really don't get that. I think a lot of people will appreciate more nonmagical options.

This is absolute nonsense.

You keep asserting "most people won't allow that!!!!!!" but it's just not true and it's never been true. Even stuff like Pathfinder 1E/2E shows it's not true.

Are most DMs going to let a ranger

1. heal
2. remove toxins
3. remove curses
4. speak with animals
5. speak with plants
6. entangle foes with vines
7. instantly train a beast
8. instantly befriend a beast
9. jump 60 feet
10. gain darkvision
11. breath water
12. shoot exploding arrows
13. charge their sword with fire
14. charge their arrow with lightning
15. meld with stone
16. meld with trees
17. scry
18. defeat scrying

without magic in a way that is still revelant in a adventure?

 

[Haplo781]

Yeah, I think that needs to be expanded with these changes.

Maybe Arcane Recovery allows you to swap out one prepared spell.

 

[Parmandur]

What you laid out was 13 packets with no repeats. Without repeats the playtest fails to give revised anything in time.

I laid out 9 packets, which take us to when WotC optimistic timeline calls for (which does suggest that 11 or so packets is their initial gameplan), and leaves ample time for Crawford's less optimistic 6 additional months of repeat testing before they begin finalizing publication, which will probably be somewhere in June-October of 2024 (the range in which 3E, 3.5, 4E, Essentials, and 5E dropped in the yearly schedule).

 

[CM]

Thief's Fast Hands lets them Search as a bonus action... but trapfinding is a Study action and not a Search action...

Also Fast Hands says that disabling traps and picking locks is a Dex (Sleight of Hand) check that is also made with thieves' tools. The tool proficiency glossary entry states "If you have Proficiency in the Skill that’s also used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too. This means you can benefit from both Skill Proficiency and Tool Proficiency on the same Ability Check."

So a thief proficient in both thieves' tools and sleight of hand gets to add their proficiency bonus twice to lockpicking and trap disarming, evidently.

 

[DeviousQuail]

Thief's Fast Hands lets them Search as a bonus action... but trapfinding is a Study action and not a Search action...

Also Fast Hands says that disabling traps and picking locks is a Dex (Sleight of Hand) check that is also made with thieves' tools. The tool proficiency glossary entry states "If you have Proficiency in the Skill that’s also used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too. This means you can benefit from both Skill Proficiency and Tool Proficiency on the same Ability Check."

So a thief proficient in both thieves' tools and sleight of hand gets to add their proficiency bonus twice to lockpicking and trap disarming, evidently.

I don't see where you get prof bonus twice. Wouldn't it just be attribute + prof bonus + d20 with advantage?

 

[Parmandur]

I laid out 9 packets, which take us to when WotC optimistic timeline calls for (which does suggest that 11 or so packets is their initial gameplan), and leaves ample time for Crawford's less optimistic 6 additional months of repeat testing before they begin finalizing publication, which will probably be somewhere in June-October of 2024 (the range in which 3E, 3.5, 4E, Essentials, and 5E dropped in the yearly schedule).

@Maxperson to lay it out more clearly, in no particular order:

1. Warrior Group Packet, with more Feats, maybe Spells
2. Priest Group Packet, with more Feats and Spells
3. Mage Group packet, with more Feats and Spells

That probably gets us through to the end of 2022

4. The stronghold/home-based Packet, maybe with more Feats and/or Spells
5. Encounter math and Monsters

6. Revisit of the Expert Group, with all Subclasses and any revisions based on the first round
7. Revisit of the Warrior Group, with all Subclasses and any revisions based on the first round
8. Revisit of the Priest Group, with all Subclasses and any revisions based on the first round
9. Revisit of the Mage Group, with all Subclasses and any revisions based on the first round

So that brings us to about August or September next year having covered everything theybhabe committed to, with nearly a whole year before the final publication. And Crawford foresaw followups taking through to February or March before testing is finalized, which leaves ample time for getting to the printer.

 

[Haplo781]

Thief's Fast Hands lets them Search as a bonus action... but trapfinding is a Study action and not a Search action...

Also Fast Hands says that disabling traps and picking locks is a Dex (Sleight of Hand) check that is also made with thieves' tools. The tool proficiency glossary entry states "If you have Proficiency in the Skill that’s also used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too. This means you can benefit from both Skill Proficiency and Tool Proficiency on the same Ability Check."

So a thief proficient in both thieves' tools and sleight of hand gets to add their proficiency bonus twice to lockpicking and trap disarming, evidently.

Adding your proficiency bonus is binary; you either do or you don't. If you have Expertise, you double it.

You never add your proficiency bonus twice to the same roll.

 

[CM]

I don't see where you get prof bonus twice. Wouldn't it just be attribute + prof bonus + d20 with advantage?

Adding your proficiency bonus is binary; you either do or you don't. If you have Expertise, you double it.

You never add your proficiency bonus twice to the same roll.

It was a brain fart. I meant to say that you have advantage on the roll if trained in both sleight of hand and thieves' tools, not double proficiency.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Are most DMs going to let a ranger

1. heal
2. remove toxins
3. remove curses
4. speak with animals
5. speak with plants
6. entangle foes with vines
7. instantly train a beast
8. instantly befriend a beast
9. jump 60 feet
10. gain darkvision
11. breath water
12. shoot exploding arrows
13. charge their sword with fire
14. charge their arrow with lightning
15. meld with stone
16. meld with trees
17. scry
18. defeat scrying

without magic in a way that is still revelant in a adventure?

My two cents: I’ve been arguing for a Ranger without standard spellcasting, but that doesn’t (for me) necessarily mean non-magical.

The model is like to see would be structured like Warlock invocations, where you pick from a list (your list makes a good start) to build the Ranger you want. Like the Warlock, some could be straight up spells and some could be non-spell magical powers.

 

[Maxperson]

I laid out 9 packets,

Sorry, I thought you were saying that the 36 subclasses would be 4 UAs, which would make sense and was where I got 13 from. I really doubt they will be a single UA. That's far too many subclasses to playtest in a few weeks time.

which take us to when WotC optimistic timeline calls for (which does suggest that 11 or so packets is their initial gameplan), and leaves ample time for Crawford's less optimistic 6 additional months of repeat testing before they begin finalizing publication, which will probably be somewhere in June-October of 2024 (the range in which 3E, 3.5, 4E, Essentials, and 5E dropped in the yearly schedule).

There isn't going to be 6 months of repeat testing. Not unless they speed up the release rate of the UAs. 13 packets(which is far more likely than 9) is going to take you to the February 2024 deadline.

 

[Maxperson]

@Maxperson to lay it out more clearly, in no particular order:

1. Warrior Group Packet, with more Feats, maybe Spells
2. Priest Group Packet, with more Feats and Spells
3. Mage Group packet, with more Feats and Spells

That probably gets us through to the end of 2022

It took them almost 6 weeks to get us the second packet. 3 more by the end of 2022 just isn't going to happen at that rate of release. If the rate remains consistent, we will see the warrior group packet right around November 1st. Which again brings me back to "they have to speed up the release rate if they want to get this done."

I'm not sure why you are arguing with me on this. I just said that they would have to step up the release rate and you are basically arguing that they have time, and then giving me a greatly increased release rate to prove it.

4. The stronghold/home-based Packet, maybe with more Feats and/or Spells
5. Encounter math and Monsters

6. Revisit of the Expert Group, with all Subclasses and any revisions based on the first round
7. Revisit of the Warrior Group, with all Subclasses and any revisions based on the first round
8. Revisit of the Priest Group, with all Subclasses and any revisions based on the first round
9. Revisit of the Mage Group, with all Subclasses and any revisions based on the first round

So that brings us to about August or September next year having covered everything theybhabe committed to, with nearly a whole year before the final publication. And Crawford foresaw followups taking through to February or March before testing is finalized, which leaves ample time for getting to the printer.

They are testing a lot more than that as the glossary and all the changes going on there show.

 

[Parmandur]

Sorry, I thought you were saying that the 36 subclasses would be 4 UAs, which would make sense and was where I got 13 from. I really doubt they will be a single UA. That's far too many subclasses to playtest in a few weeks time.

There isn't going to be 6 months of repeat testing. Not unless they speed up the release rate of the UAs. 13 packets(which is far more likely than 9) is going to take you to the February 2024 deadline.

I reckon that the Subclasses will be in 4 UAs, or 4/9 of thoae remaining, one per group, when they revisit the Groups after this first round of tests. At about one a month, give or take, that gets us to Summer 2023, which h gives a lot of time of anything comes up or needs further recisiting

 

[Parmandur]

It took them almost 6 weeks to get us the second packet. 3 more by the end of 2022 just isn't going to happen at that rate of release. If the rate remains consistent, we will see the warrior group packet right around November 1st. Which again brings me back to "they have to speed up the release rate if they want to get this done."

I'm not sure why you are arguing with me on this. I just said that they would have to step up the release rate and you are basically arguing that they have time, and then giving me a greatly increased release rate to prove it.

I'm sorry if this is coming across as "arguing," I'm more refining my own take on what's going on based on the evidence at hand, juat shooting the breeze. We'll see how it hashes out in time.

You are right that they will have to increase the rate of drops, but it didn't take them six weeks to be ready, they delayed the second drop to extend the vital first survey, based on what they said in the video interviews these were good to go after just a month. And they said the cadence will be about once a month for a year, which gives plenty of room for what they've said they are testing.

They are testing a lot more than that as the glossary and all the changes going on there show.

Not really, they laid out what they plan to test pretty exactly: the game mostly isn't changing, frankly, so putting in potential refinements in the Glossary will go on throughout the testing phase here fairly easily. That won't add to the number of UA.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm sorry if this is coming across as "arguing," I'm more refining my own take on what's going on based on the evidence at hand, juat shooting the breeze. We'll see how it hashes out in time.

Yeah. It came across as disagreeing with me, so I was confused

You are right that they will have to increase the rate of drops, but it didn't take them six weeks to be ready, they delayed the second drop to extend the vital first survey, based on what they said in the video interviews these were good to go after just a month. And they said the cadence will be about once a month for a year, which gives plenty of room for what they've said they are testing.

Even at 1 per month, that's a packet around November 1st and another around December 1st. Three of the four groups by the end of the year, not all four.

Not really, they laid out what they plan to test pretty exactly: the game mostly isn't changing, frankly, so putting in potential refinements in the Glossary will go on throughout the testing phase here fairly easily. That won't add to the number of UA.

The big issue I have with that, is that how I view any given class or subclass is going to be heavily influenced by the glossary changes. A subclass I think is weak and should be changed might be a lot better given a new glossary with new ways to view their abilities. It would suck if I gave a glowing review only to have it change 4 packets later when the glossary changes or a review that I hate a subclass that 4 packets later is suddenly really fun and good.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Galahad possessed the strength of 10 men because of his virtue.

Where was this? I recently read Mallory and Geoffrey of Monmouth and don’t recall that. Was it in some later telling? Those stories are hard to reconcile because they kept changing.

 

[Parmandur]

Even at 1 per month, that's a packet around November 1st and another around December 1st. Three of the four groups by the end of the year, not all four.

One in October, one in November, one in December seems probable, then one in January, February, March, April, May, June, July, and August would seem to allow them to fit in everything that they have laid out for their testing plan...which fits their stated planned schedule, too. One per Calendar Month, not necessarily one ever 6 weeks, is what I reckon theybare aiming for. So far, we've seen one in August and one in September, and one a month is what they said they arenaimijg for.

The big issue I have with that, is that how I view any given class or subclass is going to be heavily influenced by the glossary changes. A subclass I think is weak and should be changed might be a lot better given a new glossary with new ways to view their abilities. It would suck if I gave a glowing review only to have it change 4 packets later when the glossary changes or a review that I hate a subclass that 4 packets later is suddenly really fun and good.

Don't worry about balance considerations, WotC isn't uaingUA for that. Consider how the concept works for you, in theory and in practice if possible. The balance is what WotC will do after UA surveys.

 

[Maxperson]

One in October, one in November, one in December seems probable, then one in January, February, March, April, May, June, July, and August would seem to allow them to fit in everything that they have laid out for their testing plan...which fits their stated planned schedule, too. One per Calendar Month, not necessarily one ever 6 weeks, is what I reckon theybare aiming for. So far, we've seen one in August and one in September, and one a month is what they said they arenaimijg for.

The one in "September" was the one for October. It was released 1 day before the end of the month.

The balance is what WotC will do after UA surveys.

Which doesn't really make any sense. I can't accurately tell them if I like or don't like something if they are just going to change it after I tell them. Once they adjust for balance, I may not like it anymore, or I may like something that I didn't like during the UA.

 

[Parmandur]

The one in "September" was the one for October. It was released 1 day before the end of the month.

But it was ready to go in Mid-September, based on what Crawford said in the video series accompanying the drop: they recorded those before they decided to extend the survey period, and they were talking like the drop came about two weeks before it did. I expect another in October, one in Nocembwr, and one in December are likely.

Which doesn't really make any sense. I can't accurately tell them if I like or don't like something if they are just going to change it after I tell them. Once they adjust for balance, I may not like it anymore, or I may like something that I didn't like during the UA.

That's how UA has operated for the past 8 years: UA is for getting impressions from a wide array of users on an early draft, adjusting based on input before they do balance work on further drafts in their private playtest network. These are gut checks, to see if people like the direction.

 

[Maxperson]

But it was ready to go in Mid-September, based on what Crawford said in the video series accompanying the drop: they recorded those before they decided to extend the survey period, and they were talking like the drop came about two weeks before it did. I expect another in October, one in Nocembwr, and one in December are likely.

That still leaves the last one to go until mid january, and we can't be sure that they will all be ready and evenly spaced.

That's how UA has operated for the past 8 years: UA is for getting impressions from a wide array of users on an early draft, adjusting based on input before they do balance work on further drafts in their private playtest network. These are gut checks, to see if people like the direction.

The last 8 years aren't really relevant, as they were not really playtests. They were a popularity measure for most of that time. Get enough votes and it makes the cut. The rest of the time it was just so we can preview what is being released in books. They didn't change much or anything before releasing what they showed us.

To find the last relevant playtest we have to go back to the 5e playtesting, and that was much different.

 

[darjr]

That still leaves the last one to go until mid january, and we can't be sure that they will all be ready and evenly spaced.

The last 8 years aren't really relevant, as they were not really playtests. They were a popularity measure for most of that time. Get enough votes and it makes the cut. The rest of the time it was just so we can preview what is being released in books. They didn't change much or anything before releasing what they showed us.

To find the last relevant playtest we have to go back to the 5e playtesting, and that was much different.

No, I can tell you that they were playtests. And also tests of what was popular. I mean that's part of it, why wouldn't it be?

Also if you listen to the Ranger video I think they said it's been in the works for a while now. I think pieces have shown up in other UAs (I'll have to listen again to confirm that last sentence).

The Next playtests, assuming that's what you mean, were for a whole new game.

These are much closer to UA in kind in that they are only testing new parts of an existing game.