Optional XP system? No tiers?

[Tashtego]

Is it possible to have an optional XP system that doesn't have the tiers and the increasing die types?

For example, I am interested in a more skills-based game, where characters just get points to get more skills/careers. And I enjoyed the earlier draft because everything used d6. I like the messy, organic character growth of skill-based systems like GURPS, Call of Cthulhu and World of Darkness.

I am not as much interested in a system where characters go up set tiers/levels (like Savage Worlds) where the dice change as well. I was wondering if there could be an optional bit in the GM info, outlining other ways of character growth.

Food for thought.

 

[Morrus]

You can just not use the tiers. It won't break anything. Just buy skills, attributes, career grades, etc. as normal.

 

[LucasC]

Just FYI - this advancement was not a hit among my players. They in fact disliked it a lot (little on that topic in my feedback thread).

 

[Morrus]

Just FYI - this advancement was not a hit among my players. They in fact disliked it a lot (little on that topic in my feedback thread).

You actually used it? That was quick!

 

[LucasC]

No no, we didn't use it, they only have just over 100XP at this time. They all read it though and none of them like the idea.

 

[Khaalis]

Question on advancement.

Improving an existing skill at a cost of 10x the new skill rank.

Is this a holdover from a different skill system? Skills don't have ranks. Or do you mean skill multipliers? i.e. If I have Stealth, and I want Stealth x2 it costs me 10XP?

Also, isn't 100XP for a new skill, which only adds +1 die to very specific actions a bit steep? I guess it comes down to how much XP per player do you think is the "average" award? As it stands it looks like XP gain is pretty steep curve, like old Shadowrun getting 1-3 Karma a run and the average advancement was going to run you something like 30 Karma.

This may work for someone who has a really long-term regular attendance game, but not all of us get to game that way anymore. Like our group, we really only play 1/year when we get together for our own 1 week long GameCon. We ditch the wives and take a guy vacation just to game. For us we either have to be happy playing the entire time at a static level with no advancement, or need a system that allows easy advancement (usually the DM deciding we've accomplished enough to advance 1 bracket, tier, level, etc.). In the current XP = Advancement Currency system, the DM would have be giving out truck loads of XP (like using a 10x or 20x multiplier) especially if the game ends up RP focused rather than mowing threw mooks to rack up XP.

Just a thought.

 

[Morrus]

Question on advancement.
Is this a holdover from a different skill system? Skills don't have ranks. Or do you mean skill multipliers? i.e. If I have Stealth, and I want Stealth x2 it costs me 10XP?

Yep, it's the multipliers. And the prices have gone up! (See the errata thread).

Also, isn't 100XP for a new skill, which only adds +1 die to very specific actions a bit steep?

The skills are equal to two attribute points, though more specialized. The combat ones, in particular, are pretty powerful.

This may work for someone who has a really long-term regular attendance game, but not all of us get to game that way anymore. Like our group, we really only play 1/year when we get together for our own 1 week long GameCon. We ditch the wives and take a guy vacation just to game. For us we either have to be happy playing the entire time at a static level with no advancement, or need a system that allows easy advancement (usually the DM deciding we've accomplished enough to advance 1 bracket, tier, level, etc.). In the current XP = Advancement Currency system, the DM would have be giving out truck loads of XP (like using a 10x or 20x multiplier) especially if the game ends up RP focused rather than mowing threw mooks to rack up XP.

You could adopt a faster progression - Pathfinder uses three progressions (fast, medium, slow) depending on the preference of the group. It's totally fine to do that!

 

[LucasC]

My group has been averaging around 40 XP per session so far but I expect as we get more familiar with the rule stat will increase. Right now we get through 1 or 2 encounters in a night along with the non-combat stuff we do.

Couple of other thoughts -

• Adding a skill rank is a significant character improvement assuming you choose a regularly-used skill. There is certainly going to be a difference in value between some core skills (Marksman, Melee Weapon, Running, etc.) and something less universally useful such as Local Knowledge.
• With the new limits on skill ranks by tier it is not really an optional progressions system any longer.

 

[Khaalis]

• Adding a skill rank is a significant character improvement assuming you choose a regularly-used skill. There is certainly going to be a difference in value between some core skills (Marksman, Melee Weapon, Running, etc.) and something less universally useful such as Local Knowledge.
• With the new limits on skill ranks by tier it is not really an optional progressions system any longer.

Ok, so let me see if I got this right.

1) You can no longer take a Skill more than once in Tier 1, period. So all instances of say Carrying x2 by getting one from your Species and one from a Tradition is gone.
Assuming that I did read it correctly, why do you say it is not an optional progression system anymore? Is it only for Tier 1 you mean since you CAN'T spend XP on that option in Tier 1? Thus making it only a Tier 2-4 option?


To Morrus:
There are two obvious power level of skills. Combat Skills and Non-Combat skills. Why not make the cost of Leveling these skill separate? Even if its a skill you use a lot, getting +1 die in a non-combat "situation" isn't nearly as powerful as compared to a combat skill.

For instance...

Combat Skills
* "Ranks" limited to 1 per Tier.
* Learn a New Skill = 500 XP
* Improvement Cost = 100XP * New Skill Rank

Non-Combat Skills
* "Ranks" limited to 2 per Tier.
* Learn a New Skill = 100 XP
* Improvement Cost = 25XP * New Skill Rank

This would allow people to feel like they can afford to diversify a lot more into areas they wouldn't normally bother. If you're players need to save every last XP just to afford "essential" combat skills or Tradition Level Ups, you're NEVER going to get them to spend XP on the more "RP" side of things like Performance skills, Gaming skills, Crafting skills, etc. I might even completely separate non-Combat, "Class Skill" type of skills from the XP system altogether. For instance, as a Rogue your spend all of your XP on combat skills, Tradition upgrades and class essential skills like stealth and thievery. You're never going to have the XP to spend on things like Draughts, Cooking, Fortune-Telling, etc.

JMHO.


PS: As you can tell I still think the XP costs are really high, especially if the average session nets you 40XP. That's 50 Session to reach Tier 2, and along the way all you'll afford is +2 Tradition Levels. So I played 50 sessions to get to level 3??? That would never in a million years float with our gaming group.

 

[LucasC]

Ok, so let me see if I got this right.

1) You can no longer take a Skill more than once in Tier 1, period. So all instances of say Carrying x2 by getting one from your Species and one from a Tradition is gone.
Assuming that I did read it correctly, why do you say it is not an optional progression system anymore? Is it only for Tier 1 you mean since you CAN'T spend XP on that option in Tier 1? Thus making it only a Tier 2-4 option?

That's correct. One rank per tier. Period.

Prior to that change, you could safely ignore the Tier system and your character could still advance. If, for instance, you wanted to play a game that never diverged from d6s you could still do that and your character could advance through the ranks by purchasing additional skill ranks. With this change, a tier 1 character can never effectively improved their skills beyond 1 rank without first moving up to tier 2 (and d8s).