OSR IS LYING TO YOU! A reasonable discussion about OSR

[dragoner]

I’m squeezing these out between bout of activity caring for my 96-year-old Mom ...

Being primary care giver for my 94 year old Mother is one of the things that gave me the time to write my Solis setting.

As per modern D&D characters being superhero-ish, kinda tracks with modern media, otherwise like old 70's and so, there were the custom van wizards, Molly Hatchet and Nazareth album covers. Things that don't exist anymore.

 

[Spellslinging Sellsword]

Yeah, certainly 5E is higher powered than OD&D, but also 20th level D&D fighter isn't close to being able to fight Hulk or Superman.

 

[aramis erak]

Yeah, certainly 5E is higher powered than OD&D, but also 20th level D&D fighter isn't close to being able to fight Hulk or Superman.

An AD&D 20th level fighter would be able to tackle Conan one handed or Spiderman. A 20th level AD&D wizard could easily dispatch hulk at the cost of a point of Con (Wish) or any of a a dozen other ways. BUt that requires preparation. heck, sending him ethereal makes him mostly harmless... as long as the wizard stays out of reach.

 

[Spellslinging Sellsword]

And a 20th level AD&D Wizard stands no chance against Dr. Strange. If I was playing in a Superheroes rpg campaign and was stuck with a D&D character I'd feel cheated.

 

[Xenolith234]

Would you make the same statement to a referee who has used the same setting with several different systems and groups of players, all pursuing more or less the same kinds of adventures for similar reasons?

Two of those systems are my own take on OD&D, the Majestic Fantasy RPG, and the 2014 edition of D&D 5e. This referee not only used the same setting with both, but ran the exact same adventure with different groups, swapping in the 5e stat blocks for creatures and monsters and statting out characters using the same class and level in each system.

Being that referee, my observation from doing this is that D&D 5e feels considerably more fantasy-superheroic than my OD&D-based system. This isn't based on a single campaign from years ago. I have observed this many times since the release of D&D 5e in 2014, including sessions and campaigns run as recently as the past two weeks.

Now, I have some techniques for keeping D&D 5e more grounded. But it has been my direct experience that, with the common ways people choose to use D&D 5e for campaigns, particularly with multiclassing and feats in the mix, the superheroic feel compared to the classic editions becomes highly pronounced.

I have several actual play reports on my blog post if you need verification. Particularly for GURPS, Fantasy AGE, D&D 5e, and my Majestic Fantasy RPG.

Bat in the Attic

A blog on 40 years of gaming and Sandbox Fantasy.

batintheattic.blogspot.com

I'm very interested in the techniques you use for keeping 5e grounded.

 

[The Firebird]

When I hear superheros I think of characters that are significantly beyond the bounds of human achievement. Conan is strong, but "peak human" strong, at least in Howard. He gets captured on several occasions. In Shadows in the Moonlight he is knocked out by a slinger. A 5e character with permanent flying (as some get at level 14) is in an entirely different class.

 

[robertsconley]

I'm very interested in the techniques you use for keeping 5e grounded.

First off feel free to ask questions. Also keep in mind that despite my copious notes (300 pages digest size) I am probably 75% of the way there to something that is solid and finished. I did the bulk of this around 2019 but it hasn’t been my primary focus.

Overall Notes,
No feats except for humans who get exactly one. This is to reflect the face my setting is human dominated.
No multiclasssing

Modified all the classes and subclasses mostly by focusing making them fit my setting. The warlock I considered a good concept but a mess in terms of the mechanics reflecting some coherent view of a setting. Other like the mystics instead of monk as mechanically monks are ok but in terms of background don’t quite work.

Even tho I am focused on my classic edition based Majestic Fantasy RPG, I felt going through all the different 5e classes and subclasses added a lot to my worldbuilding due to all the background material I created.

Majestic Fantasy 5e Rules Alpha

Just as important is how I run my campaign which I summarized in this blog post about the Living World Sandbox. The biggest impact is that when it came to NPCs I don’t use the abbreviated stat block like in the Monster Manual. I make them as full characters. And I use setting logic to create encounters not CR. Sometimes the PCs are in over their heads, other times they stomp the opposition.

The Living World Sandbox Campaign

So for a couple of years, I've been slowly putting together an explanation of how I run tabletop roleplaying campaigns, and I finally got a...

batintheattic.blogspot.com

If you want to see a more finished rulebook, I posted a complete draft of the player guide on the rpgpub. A 5e version would follow a similar structure with 5e stuff. Just keep in mind that is from the player’s perspective, I haven’t posted anything for the referee book yet.

Manual of the Three Adventuring Arts.

I know this a bit of a info dump but hopefully you find something useful.

 

[Fenris-77]

What one person sees as superheroic another will see as just high fantasy. We're talking about personal opinion here, not hard definitions. 5E characters are definitely more powerful than their OSE and BX counterparts, I don't think anyone disagrees on that score, but I'm not sure there's a lot of value in wrangling over definitions that are so mutable past that.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Reminds me of what Charles Barkley once said about LeBron James during an NBA game years ago, "Just bring it home, stop trying to fool people. Just bring it on home."

He was talking about going bald, which I have embraced lol. As soon as it was pretty apparent I was going bald, I just brought it home...And I certainly am not going to try to dye this beard. It grows too fast. I'd have to dye it every other day.

View attachment 449149

You wear it well!

Personally, while I’ve lost significant hair thanks to male pattern baldness, I’ll probably never go bald, and I definitely won’t be shaving what remains.

It’s not a vanity thing, it’s a combination of laziness, cheapness, and medical reality.

Shaving requires putting effort into a routine to keep the dome properly cleared of stragglers.

I also have no desire to invest money in a proper head shaver. I know it’s not much, but I have HOBBIES to support!

My medical reality is that I already have enough problems with ingrown hairs and I don’t need more.

 

[Milieu]

@robertsconley Please notice that I do not dispute a sometimes substantial difference in power level. But mommy experience, “superheroes” is only ever used like “munchkins”, as an insulting term for what others are doing.

Here's an example, from Defining RPGs with Tags:

What roles do the characters have in the world? What are they like compared to common folk?

• Folk Heroic. Characters are similar to the other people in the world. The characters are just the ones who decided to pick up a sword and go into a cave instead of being a farmer. Examples: Shadowdark, Cairn, and Old School Essentials.
• High-Heroic. The characters are special in the world or become special after a level or so of play. They may already have had a profession before becoming an adventurer. Examples: D&D 2014, Dragonbane, and Pathfinder 1.
• Super-Heroic. The characters are unique in the world and significantly more powerful than most people in the world, even at low levels. Examples: D&D 2024, Daggerheart, Draw Steel, Pathfinder 2, 13th Age, and 4th edition D&D.

This is from someone who really likes D&D 2024 and thinks it's better than 2014, likes 4e D&D (or did when it was current, at least) to the point of naming his website after one of the 4e rogue's powers, and didn't love Daggerheart but liked some things about it. So when he calls those "Super-Heroic", it's not an insult.

Now, do some of the OSR people make it sound like an insult? Sure. It can be difficult to say "here's how this style is different from what you're familiar with", and "here's why I like that" without sounding like you're insulting the alternative. And some of them really do think OSR is the one true way and every other style is inferior, rather than what works for them.

But that's not unique to OSR: I've also heard people say on the other hand that OSR is only for old people with nostalgia and that modern games are obviously better. I've heard someone who likes Powered by the Apocalypse games say it should be a crime to introduce someone to D&D as their first RPG. I've seen people say XBox is better, and if you have a Playstation, you're a loser. A fan of Dungeon Crawler Carl told a reviewer who didn't like the book she must have no joy in her life. And so on for styles of music, movies, etc.

But ALSO OD&D, Basic, and AD&D 1e all literally call 4th level fighters "heroes" and 8th level fighters "superheroes", so the OSR people are lying unless they stop at level 7.