Party Tactics and Rules II: The Path to Stupidity

andargor

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The following is the continuation of the saga of our poor party, started in this thread:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40340

Since this is a rules forum, some rule questions have been raised during the latest installment of our blundering. But, as previously, I've also included the scenario to give you a better feel for what transpired. We unfortunately lost a character during this battle...

In case you did not enjoy my narrative the first time, I will start with straight rule questions. If you wish, you may then read the narrative.

Rule questions:

Miscellaneous:
- Can one use the Double Move or Run action while Spider Climbing?
- Can one use missile weapons, use a magic item or cast while Spider Climbing?
- Say you are in a good defensive position, and multiple waves of low-level monsters (say, from an army) are dispatched using area effect spells, do you get full XP for all the waves, even if you can do this all day long? Shouldn't there be less and less XP awarded for subsequent waves because you are repeating the same actions?

Spells:
- How long does it take to wake up a creature affected with a Sleep spell? Full-round or a standard action?
- With regards to lines of effect, would large creature bodies block a spell Cone effect?

The following statements from the SRD/PHB:

Cone: When the character casts a spell with a cone area, the cone shoots away from the character in the direction the character designates. A cone starts as a point directly before the character, and it widens out as it goes. A cone's width at a given distance from the character equals that distance. Its far end is as wide as the effect is long. (A 25-foot-long cone is 10 feet wide at 10 feet of its length and 25 feet wide at its far end.)

and

Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.

The character must have a clear line of effect to any target that the character casts a spell on or to any space in which the character wishes to create an effect. The character must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell the character casts. For bursts, cones, cylinders, and emanating spells, the spell only affects areas, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a burst's point, a cone's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanating spell's point of origin).

An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect.

Such an opening makes a 5-foot length of wall no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect (though the rest of the wall farther from the hole can still block the spell).

Lead me to believe that creatures within the target cone area that are not in the line of sight of the caster (e.g. hidden behind large bodies) are still in an area within the line of effect, and therefore affected. True?

Thanks in advance for your response, and here comes the narrative.

NARRATIVE

Note that the title of this post is a tongue-in-cheek poke at one of our players whose logic, while perfectly consistent within it's own frame of reference, is however totally alien to the rest of us. His inexplicable (to us) actions have led to many goofy situations... We however enjoy his presence tremendously, and his absence would remove a lot of flavor from our game sessions. So "Stupidity" is only in jest, and is not (serious) criticism. :)

A little reminder of our party composition:

Sa'Keb (Human Clr4)
Semeren (Human Ftr4)
Macou (Human Mnk4)
Firingon (Elf Mnk1/Wiz3)
Melian (Half-Elf Mnk2/Src2)
Hybrahim (Elf Mnk4) (gained level at last fight)

We left off with our party exhausted and depleted from a hard fight. We quickly patched up and healed our wounded, and tallied the loot. We had captured the priestess, priest and fighter, and we discussing what to do next. Interrogate? Return them to the local authorities?

If you remember, we were in a large chamber which we thought was the last in the mines we were visiting. However, there were two great doors (20' wide by 15' high) leading yet further. They were locked and had two keyholes, one of which corresponded to a key we had found on the priestess. We seemed to need another key to open the doors.

A quick Listen check was called by the DM. A few of us heard some noises from the other side of the doors. Before any of us could react to this other than listening more closely, our beloved Macou saunters over to the doors and decides to knock.

Bad idea.

(I did tell you the veils of his wisdom are impenetrable?)

The doors crack open, just a little. While the cavern we were in was lit, what lay beyond is shrouded in darkness. Our party members, having finished shaking their heads, reposition themselves defensively, some close, while the casters are about 60' away. Melian grabs a few items from the loot, most notably a Wand of Frost. Firingon grabs the priestess' Boots of Levitation, and prudently rises from the floor. Hybrahim grabs the fighter's Boots of Speed and dons them.

We wait. Nothing happens.

Semeren pushes the doors further open, to see what's on the other side. Our cavern's light spills into another dark cavern, whose extents are beyond the illumination thus provided (DM's call: 60' radius from the doors is visible, 120' to low-light vision).

We are faced with a stupefied orc. But he is not alone... Further back, near the limit of our vision are another score of his buddies. Oh-oh.

But the orc backs up, seeming to be a little afraid of us, and so do his buddies.

Macou, following his inscrutable logic, runs back to fetch the unconscious and bound priestess. He then runs back and shows her to the orcs. Semeren cries loudly, in Orcish: "WE ARE YOUR NEW MASTERS! WE DEFEATED THE PRIESTESS! BOW TO US!".

The orcs were not impressed.

With a cry of "THEY ATTACKED THE PRIESTESS! KILL THEM ALL!", fanatic devotion fills their eyes and they charge.

Semeren and Macou (holding the priestess) had advanced a little past the doors. Hybrahim and Sa'keb were not far behind. They were almost immediately pelted with crossbow bolts from the cavern's darkness. From other orcs, in addition to the 20 before us. Oh-oh.

Semeren and Hybrahim engage the first wave of orcs. Being a little inside the cavern, they were easily flanked. Macou drags the priestess back towards the rear, where the casters are. Melian launches a Sleep from a scroll, and affects a few of them. Firingon shoves the piled-up treasure and the captured priest and priestess into an item from the loot: Leomund's Desirable Shelter (essentially Leomund's Secure Shelter, in a small house-like item that pops to full size with a command word). Macou shoves the priestess inside, and Firingon reduces the house again and pockets it.

Melian turns invisible (again using a scroll), and proceeds to cast a few Monster Summoning II spells to aid in the melee. Macou returns to the front lines. Firingon uses his last spell: Sleep, and affects a few other orcs.

The orcs seem to be well-trained. They recognize the effects of the Sleep spell, and some start slapping their friends awake. Then they feverisly return to the offensive.

Missiles keep hammering down on our party from the darkness, and even a few spells. Either priests or orc shamans are hidden somewhere, out of sight. There were a couple of Hold Person attempts, so they were no slouches...

The party starts to get the situation under control near the doors, barely. Orcs were not much of a match against Semeren and Macou. A lot of them were still sleeping, and some were trying to get the doors closed. But then, all hell broke loose.

Out of the shadows, three throwing-axe wielding orcs appear. What caught the eye, though, were their mounts. Massive lizards, easily 30' long from ugly sharp-toothed snout to tip of tail, come bearing down at full tilt on the party members near the doors.

One breaks through to the lit cavern, suffering a few AoO's. Sa'Keb receives an axe, and Macou narrowly misses being chomped by sharp lizard teeth. The other two lizard-riders engage Semeren and Hybrahim.

For a few rounds, the party reels from the onslaught. With a combination of scrolls and intense melee, the two lizards at the door are brought down, with their riders. The lizard on Hybrahim scores a critical hit, which means that he is locked in it's jaws, and they start to squeeze. Soon after, he falls unconscious.

The DM carefully considers what the lizard will do next. He regretfully announces that the lizard, being incensed with battle-lust, decides to coup de grâce Hybrahim. With a mighty shake of it's head, the lizard tosses away the halves of Hybrahim's sundered body. His blood glistens wetly on its satisfied grin... (R.I.P, we will miss you :( )

But that's not all... Again from the shadows, another wave of 20 orcs advances! The unmistakable screech of more lizards can also be heard. Oh-oh.

Semeren, Macou and Sa'Keb hastily back up to the doors, still harried by hidden missile fire. Two lizard bodies lie before them, and one behind in the lit cavern. This creates a few narrow passages between the bodies, easily defensible. If the orcs wish to climb over the bodies (DC 10), it will slow them down.

Melian and Firingon reposition themselves. Melian uses a scroll of Spider Climb and watches upside down from the top of the door. Firingon levitates behind the entrance and pokes his head out from the top corner of the opening to watch the situation.

With a mighty shout, the orcs and lizard-riders of the second wave hit. They are somewhat slowed down and channeled between the lizard bodies. Semeren, Sa'Keb and Macou hold them back, long enough for Melian to use an item: Wand of Frost (Cone of Cold).

The orcs and lizard-riders are so packed together that most of them get caught in the blast. All the orcs die and the lizards are horribly wounded. They are quickly dispatched.

Melian passes the Wand to Firingon, and moves into the dark cavern to retrieve some plot items (and the Boots of Speed) from Hybrahim. (he is still invisible, and the DM rolled Listen checks to see if the orcs hear him). While he does this, a third wave hits. Yes, 20 more orcs, and three lizard-riders.

Firingon repeats Melian's tactic with the Wand, and they are dispatched. Not without some trouble though, the hidden orc shamans had advanced with this wave, and had cast Heat Metal on Sa'Keb and Semeren (this is a 2e converted module, Heat Metal is Drd2 in 3e). Melian returns with the sought-after equipment.

A fourth wave hits. Same tactic. They are dispatched. The bodies keep piling up. Lizard and orc bodies are seriously starting to choke the entrance.

Don't these orcs have brains? Seems not. The DM tells us that upon observation, they have a fanatical gleam in their eyes. So something else is at work here...

A fifth wave approaches. After a quick appraisal, we see that we are in really bad shape. Other than the Wand of Frost, HP's are low, no offensive scrolls are left and no spells are left. During the last wave, a few orcs broke through and caused some mischief. There seems to be no immediate end to orc reinforcements. Looks like we had stumbled on a hidden army, and who knows how many there were...

The party, weary of arm and soul, decides to withdraw. The orcs do not follow...

Here ends the stupidity. :)

Oh, you are probably wondering what happened to the fighter, priest and priestess that Firingon and Macou shoved in Leomund's Desirable Shelter. The item description from the module reads "Living creatures inside the house when it is reduced die a horrible death. Non-living material is not affected". Oh well.

Tactics note:

- Narrow passages can save your hide. Concentration of force against a numerically superior but individually inferior enemy is one of the oldest tricks in the book.
- If you are targeted with unseen archers, retreat to cover.
- Don't knock on unknown doors when your party is depleted of resources. :P


Thanks for reading!

Andargor
 

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andargor said:
- Can one use the Double Move or Run action while Spider Climbing?
From the SRD: "The subject can climb and travel on vertical surfaces or even traverse ceilings as well as a spider does. The affected creature must have bare hands and feet to climb in this manner. The subject climbs at half its speed. A creature with a Strength score of at least 20 +1 per caster level can pull the subject off a wall."

He travels "as well as a spider does" and "moves at half speed". So yes...you can double move and run.


- Can one use missile weapons, use a magic item or cast while Spider Climbing?
I would say no...but the SRD doesn't provide enough detail to rule one way or the other...it infers that all your hands and feet must remain in contact with the surface of the wall...so you can't cast spells or fire missile weapons or use your hands for anything other than moving...personally, I would allow you to "hang on" with just your feet while you shoot or whatever as long as you don't move.
- Say you are in a good defensive position, and multiple waves of low-level monsters (say, from an army) are dispatched using area effect spells, do you get full XP for all the waves, even if you can do this all day long? Shouldn't there be less and less XP awarded for subsequent waves because you are repeating the same actions?
Nothing in the rules says you get less than normal XP. Keep in mind that if the CR of the creatures are 8 or more below your average party level, the DM can give you ad hoc XP for the encounter...which could be none if it was no challenge.
Spells:
- How long does it take to wake up a creature affected with a Sleep spell? Full-round or a standard action?
From the SRD: Awakening a creature is a standard action
- With regards to lines of effect, would large creature bodies block a spell Cone effect?

Definately not. As long as there are "holes" (like between the creatures legs and what not) creatures do not block line of effect

In some circumstances, the DM is within his rights to rule that a creature can block line of effect. Such as when a large creature completely hides the target creature. But in general this is not the case.
 

- Can one use the Double Move or Run action while Spider Climbing?

Double-move - yup. Run - I'd be inclined to say yes.

Remember that base speed is halved, though.

- Can one use missile weapons, use a magic item or cast while Spider Climbing?

Interesting one. With Slippers of Spider Climbing, no problem.

With the spell (and remember to take your boots off!), it's murky. I'd go with a three-points-of-contact guideline. So you can cast a spell, use a magic item, throw a one-handed weapon, or fire a loaded crossbow... but no loading crossbows or slings, using bows, etc.

- How long does it take to wake up a creature affected with a Sleep spell? Full-round or a standard action?

Check out Aid Another, PHB p135. Standard action.

- With regards to lines of effect, would large creature bodies block a spell Cone effect?

You're going to get dissension on this one :)

No, it won't block it... but if it provides cover, the creatures behind it get a bonus to their Reflex save. The rule for standing directly behind a creature of the same size is one-half cover (+2 to Reflex saves)... I'm sure there's a rule for creatures of different sizes somewhere, but I can't remember where.

-Hyp.
 

andargor said:
- Can one use the Double Move or Run action while Spider Climbing?
Check the MM, page 7, under Speed, Climb. The spell lets you climb like a spider, which must follow these rules. You may double move but not run. The double move might require some kind of climb check to stay on the wall/ceiling.

- Can one use missile weapons, use a magic item or cast while Spider Climbing?
You should be able to use one free hand to toss a dagger, cast a spell, or use certain items.

- Say you are in a good defensive position, and multiple waves of low-level monsters (say, from an army) are dispatched using area effect spells, do you get full XP for all the waves, even if you can do this all day long? Shouldn't there be less and less XP awarded for subsequent waves because you are repeating the same actions?
Check the DMG, page 167, where it suggests that if the risk/challenge is less than the CR indicates, multiply the XP by half or 2/3. I would certainly at least half the XP of those you blasted with that wand of frost. You were not really challenged by that part of the encounter, and the item itself is much more powerful than the typical 4th level party possesses.

- How long does it take to wake up a creature affected with a Sleep spell? Full-round or a standard action?
PH, page 253, says it's a standard action.

- With regards to lines of effect, would large creature bodies block a spell Cone effect?
Depends. :D

The sage just addressed this one for lightning bolt. Basically, as long as the creature does not block all the space, the effect continiues past the creature to its full range. Nor does that creature provide any cover from the effect.
 


Re: Re: Re: Party Tactics and Rules II: The Path to Stupidity

Hypersmurf said:
I'm inclined to agree. I have been using cover from creatures for fireballs and lightning bolts and other AOE spells, but the sage says otherwise in the article. :D

It seems odd that a table would provide cover from a lightning bolt (which the sage admits in his answer), but an ogre would not.
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Party Tactics and Rules II: The Path to Stupidity

It seems odd that a table would provide cover from a lightning bolt (which the sage admits in his answer), but an ogre would not.

It's nice that they call it Sage 'Advice', isn't it? :)

-Hyp.
 


andargor said:

Oh, you are probably wondering what happened to the fighter, priest and priestess that Firingon and Macou shoved in Leomund's Desirable Shelter. The item description from the module reads "Living creatures inside the house when it is reduced die a horrible death. Non-living material is not affected". Oh well.
best part, if only for the mental image.
 

Re: Re: Party Tactics and Rules II: The Path to Stupidity

Thanks for the responses guys, this is really useful.

Originally posted by Uller
From the SRD: Awakening a creature is a standard action

Originally posted by Hypersmurf
Check out Aid Another, PHB p135. Standard action.

Ack, I'm blind. The SRD is definitely more specific on this.

Originally posted by Dr. Zoom
Check the DMG, page 167, where it suggests that if the risk/challenge is less than the CR indicates, multiply the XP by half or 2/3. I would certainly at least half the XP of those you blasted with that wand of frost. You were not really challenged by that part of the encounter, and the item itself is much more powerful than the typical 4th level party possesses.

Indeed, the Wand of Frost was instrumental. However, it only has 5 charges, and we expended four. So, it's not going to be much use in the future. We will discuss XP awards, though.

Personally, I don't like advancing too fast. Our party treasure was sub-par with the wealth guidelines before this adventure, and we had barely attained the "proper" level with the fight right before the orcs. Now, we have so much XP that we are a hair below CL 6 (almost +2 levels) and no additional wealth. My feeling is that future encounters, with a heightened EL, will be challenging for a while since we have few resources.

Note that the DM had the feeling we were "too strong". A few factors led to this impression: we were in a great defensive position with the orcs, we are experienced players, and lastly we were using a house rule where more than 1 scroll per day could be created proportional to gp value. I've proposed going "by the book" and only allowing to scribe 1 scroll per day.

To illustrate the resources we used for this battle:

- 1 character lost
- 1 potion
- 4 wand charges (out of 5)
- At least 15 scrolls, between the Wizard and the Sorcerer.

So without scrolls, we would have had a much harder time. Perhaps the house rule will go out the window, and scrolls would truly become a last-ditch backup tool instead of a run-of-the-mill attack tool.

Originally posted by Hypersmurf
- With regards to lines of effect, would large creature bodies block a spell Cone effect?

You're going to get dissension on this one

No, it won't block it... but if it provides cover, the creatures behind it get a bonus to their Reflex save. The rule for standing directly behind a creature of the same size is one-half cover (+2 to Reflex saves)... I'm sure there's a rule for creatures of different sizes somewhere, but I can't remember where.

I like this, sort of makes more sense. I'll propose it to the DM.

Originally posted by Saepiroth
best part, if only for the mental image.

Hehe. Although we are screwed getting information about Semeren's sister now, or for that fact, what the heck is an orc army doing there... Oh well.


BTW, do you guys enjoy my narratives? Or is it just a waste of space?

Andargor
 

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