D&D General PCs vs Ships

[TheSword]

Good points on the movement. A ship under sail should outpace them.

In our scenario, the pirate ship was looting a merchant ship, spotted our PC's pirate ship, detached, fired some aggressive shots with ballista/catapult (the PC ship has a ballista but no ammo). The PCs faked fleeing (when in reality the PCs cast water breathing and leaped overboard). The pirate ship, once the ship was out of sight, returned to finish the looting. The PCs swam underwater, climbed aboard before the ship got to looting (the warlock used misty step to bypass an Athletics check to climb). Once on board, they focused-fired area attacks (not a lot of room to maneuver on a ship) to isolate the Captain and kill him (to demoralize the crew).

There is a roleplay aspect here. This guy was a wannabe pirate, but if they had attacked someone considered a true member of the Pirate Kingdom, they'd be marked for death. I'm hoping that will be a deterrent. They got lucky, this time.

So the enemy ship's advantage of movement was negated, though the PCs are certain to try and commandeer a better ship. I don't want to "thwart" well-laid plans by the PCs, but it seems to kill the entire notion of ship-to-ship classic combat. Given this world has some high-level Pirate Lords, what keeps them all from doing the same, whether it be flying, dimension door, etc.? That's my conundrum: what makes traditional sailing (speed) and weaponry (e.g. the new-age cannons that are popping up) relevant if magic can simply override it? What counter has the world come up with (such as glyphed hulls or special materials)?

I think there’s your answer. They got lucky and took a stationary/slow ship, through a novel set of tactics to take them by surprise.

Just make sure the next combat is moving under sail, to reset the expectations. They have to work the ship next time to close the distance, though I don’t think a ship boarding by the PCs is necessarily bad. The Pathfinder Pirate campaign Skull and Shackles openly discussed PCs boarding as the main method of the PCs taking a ship. Though they very quickly move away from the ship boarding being the main challenge. To other things.

The other reason for the PCs to use the ship more in combat is for the crew to really struggle without the PCs to command them. It’s an extension of don’t split the party. If bad stuff can happen to their ship if they leave it in combat, then they are less likely to travel far from it. They probably think they are protecting the crew by having the combat take place away from it. However if the ship is a pirate or military vessel relatively evenly matched then they should be wanting to take out the PCs ship, which is now bereft a captain, chief gunner, ships wizard etc.

 

[MarkB]

A couple of random thoughts based on previous posts:

Something not always considered about pirate ships is that they tend to have larger crews than most ships of their size, specifically because their standard practice involves boarding other ships to take them intact for their cargo - essentially they carry the equivalent of what would be a force of marines on a military vessel, but usually not differentiated so cleanly from the rest of the crew. When attacking a pirate ship, expect it to be overcrewed and with a disproportionate level of combat specialists.

Glyphs of Warding have been mentioned a few times, and while I'm usually not a stickler when it comes to spells cast on a mobile battlefield such as a ship, this spell does specifically say that the glyph breaks if the object or surface it's cast upon moves more than 10 feet.

 

[Horwath]

Dashing is an action only allowed during combat - it is effectively sprinting all out. Outside of combat I limit dashes to being used con modifier times. People can't sprint forever, if they could marathons would go a lot quicker.

I say that you can dash a number of rounds equal to your CON score.

 

[Toe Knee Nose]

Even at overland speeds, PC's are very likely to outpace a ship. Overland speed for sail is only about 4-6 miles per hour. That's a 30 foot pace. Any class that gets a speed bonus - ranger, monk, barbarian, rogue - all outpace the ship, even without magical enhancements. Add in anything like boots of speed or various other speed boost items and outpacing a ship is childsplay at 8th level. A Dimension Door spell to plunk yourself ahead of the ship for example. Sailing ships are not fast.

Let's not forget that our PC's can travel at night and don't need wind. Catching a ship is pretty easy.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Even at overland speeds, PC's are very likely to outpace a ship. Overland speed for sail is only about 4-6 miles per hour. That's a 30 foot pace. Any class that gets a speed bonus - ranger, monk, barbarian, rogue - all outpace the ship, even without magical enhancements. Add in anything like boots of speed or various other speed boost items and outpacing a ship is childsplay at 8th level. A Dimension Door spell to plunk yourself ahead of the ship for example. Sailing ships are not fast.

Let's not forget that our PC's can travel at night and don't need wind. Catching a ship is pretty easy.

Unless the PCs can fly, trying to race a ship along the coast will involve mostly difficult terrain, plus some impassable terrain that necessitates a long diversion.

 

[Tonguez]

Another possibility: if there are very, very few 8th-level characters in the world, it could well be that a ship simply is not a challenge for pcs anymore. I wouldn't expect them to worry about muggers or highwaymen at this point either.

This means that "attacking a ship" is no longer a challenge for them (and running the scene in detail is probably not worth the time.) You can just handwave such encounters if they're going to come up repeatedly.

I dont know if thats very helpful advice for a Pirate Campaign - if Pirates arent attacking a ship, what are they left doing? Theres only so often you can do "attack by a sea monster" afterall - is the Ship just left as quick travel between adventure sites?

 

[Mecheon]

I dont know if thats very helpful advice for a Pirate Campaign - if Pirates arent attacking a ship, what are they left doing? Theres only so often you can do "attack by a sea monster" afterall - is the Ship just left as quick travel between adventure sites?

Once they've hit 8th level, though, they've had 8 levels of going after ships. You can't just keep doing the same thing all the time in a campaign after all, and they're clearly well past where an average pirate ship is going to be a threat.

They're past where normal ships are a concern and need to either be winding down the campaign, settling into more politicking position and establishing themselves as pirate lords of a region, or going after more magical boats that are much higher risk, and much higher reward

Or, well. Dungeon delving

 

[TheSword]

Once they've hit 8th level, though, they've had 8 levels of going after ships. You can't just keep doing the same thing all the time in a campaign after all, and they're clearly well past where an average pirate ship is going to be a threat.

They're past where normal ships are a concern and need to either be winding down the campaign, settling into more politicking position and establishing themselves as pirate lords of a region, or going after more magical boats that are much higher risk, and much higher reward

Or, well. Dungeon delving

I agree with this. Some items from Skull and Shackles include.

• Stealing cannons from Tidewater Watch
• Following a treasure map tattooed on a castaways back.
• Entering a ship race around a permanent hurricanr
• Exploring and securing your own pirate base.

Lots of good fun bits!

 

[TheSword]

Even at overland speeds, PC's are very likely to outpace a ship. Overland speed for sail is only about 4-6 miles per hour. That's a 30 foot pace. Any class that gets a speed bonus - ranger, monk, barbarian, rogue - all outpace the ship, even without magical enhancements. Add in anything like boots of speed or various other speed boost items and outpacing a ship is childsplay at 8th level. A Dimension Door spell to plunk yourself ahead of the ship for example. Sailing ships are not fast.

Let's not forget that our PC's can travel at night and don't need wind. Catching a ship is pretty easy.

How do you figure overland travel speed for an average human is 4-6 mph?

 

[AlViking]

I say that you can dash a number of rounds equal to your CON score.

Mine was actually a typo - I took it from the chase rules but it should have been con modifier +3. Dashing for long distances has come up now and then in games I've been involved in, even if not swimming specifically. In most cases mod +3 or con score isn't going to make a huge difference after a relatively short distance.