D&D General PCs vs Ships

[Piperken]

...I don't want to "thwart" well-laid plans by the PCs, but it seems to kill the entire notion of ship-to-ship classic combat. Given this world has some high-level Pirate Lords, what keeps them all from doing the same, whether it be flying, dimension door, etc.? That's my conundrum: what makes traditional sailing (speed) and weaponry (e.g. the new-age cannons that are popping up) relevant if magic can simply override it?...

I'd advise leaning on traditional weaponry/ingenuity first, then build out your options out as makes sense from there; for example I might comb through cantrips first, consider their use and combine them in flavorful ways with above.

Societies tend to rely on what is simple and effective e.g. The one o'clock cannon to signal time of day (one time) vs. firing a cannon at noon (twelve times).

Chain shot, bolas, nets etc. that can be launched into the air, can handle people flying.

Both Dimension Door and Misty Step have their limits and own effective counters in nonsail scenarios; look to those.

 

[AlViking]

Even at overland speeds, PC's are very likely to outpace a ship. Overland speed for sail is only about 4-6 miles per hour. That's a 30 foot pace. Any class that gets a speed bonus - ranger, monk, barbarian, rogue - all outpace the ship, even without magical enhancements. Add in anything like boots of speed or various other speed boost items and outpacing a ship is childsplay at 8th level. A Dimension Door spell to plunk yourself ahead of the ship for example. Sailing ships are not fast.

Let's not forget that our PC's can travel at night and don't need wind. Catching a ship is pretty easy.

If using the Travel Pace rules, individual's speeds don't always matter. According to those rules speed in MPH is movement speed divided by 10. You can increase that by 1/3 if going at a faster pace - but you risk exhaustion after 8 hours. Also seems like you're assuming everyone has a swim speed because otherwise speed is going to be halved. Once again, dashing is a combat thing or if following the chase rules it's con mod +3.

It all just depends on what set of rules you want to use, what kind of ship you're chasing, whether you're swimming through shark infested waters that might be curious about these people swimming by and so on. How complicated do you want to get? Spot a ship from 10 miles away and jump in the water? You aren't swimming 10 miles, you're trying to close the gap between where you jump in the water and the ship sailing away. A sailboat has a speed of 2 MPH, a galley has a speed of 4 MPH. If they're sailing away after an hour even if chasing a sailboat you will have closed the gap from 10 miles to 9 miles. The galley - unless everyone in the party has a speed of over 40 - is just going to keep it's distance.

You have to factor in a lot of things if you want a more accurate picture which requires a level of detail D&D doesn't have with our core rules.

 

[Tonguez]

Once they've hit 8th level, though, they've had 8 levels of going after ships. You can't just keep doing the same thing all the time in a campaign after all, and they're clearly well past where an average pirate ship is going to be a threat.

They're past where normal ships are a concern and need to either be winding down the campaign, settling into more politicking position and establishing themselves as pirate lords of a region, or going after more magical boats that are much higher risk, and much higher reward

Or, well. Dungeon delving

yes certainly the advice to go after bigger ships and fleets of ships is better as it still fits the core pirate game, and for certain a high level ship can and should be treated as a dungeon in its own right

I'm also reminded of the real life adventures of Captain Morgan and his raid on Lake Maracaibo, Venezuela. Famously after his 5 week raid on the forts and towns of the area his exit to the sea was blocked by the 3 Spanish warships including the their flagship (ie a bigger ship) and the local fortress. The escape involved some clever tactical ruses and use of decoys and 'special effects' - its a great gameable scenario and still at its core involves attacking enemy ships

 

[Chaltab]

I'm using "Fire as she bears" (Age of Sail, non high fantasy, very realistic) rules for ships, but ultimately my PCs all (with class features and magical items) have a swim speed of 30' minimum (but they can "dash" every round to double that with no limits, which eliminates the speed ships of that time under sail had of roughly 4-6 miles per hour).

PCs dashing every round to catch up with a ship at full sail are going to tire out real quick. Did the DM not call for con saves?

 

[TheSword]

PCs dashing every round to catch up with a ship at full sail are going to tire out real quick. Did the DM not call for con saves?

Touc has already made clear the ship was stationary for a large part of that time, plundering another ship. So there was no rush until they got closer.

 

[Sorinth]

Good points on the movement. A ship under sail should outpace them.

In our scenario, the pirate ship was looting a merchant ship, spotted our PC's pirate ship, detached, fired some aggressive shots with ballista/catapult (the PC ship has a ballista but no ammo). The PCs faked fleeing (when in reality the PCs cast water breathing and leaped overboard). The pirate ship, once the ship was out of sight, returned to finish the looting. The PCs swam underwater, climbed aboard before the ship got to looting (the warlock used misty step to bypass an Athletics check to climb). Once on board, they focused-fired area attacks (not a lot of room to maneuver on a ship) to isolate the Captain and kill him (to demoralize the crew).

There is a roleplay aspect here. This guy was a wannabe pirate, but if they had attacked someone considered a true member of the Pirate Kingdom, they'd be marked for death. I'm hoping that will be a deterrent. They got lucky, this time.

So the enemy ship's advantage of movement was negated, though the PCs are certain to try and commandeer a better ship. I don't want to "thwart" well-laid plans by the PCs, but it seems to kill the entire notion of ship-to-ship classic combat. Given this world has some high-level Pirate Lords, what keeps them all from doing the same, whether it be flying, dimension door, etc.? That's my conundrum: what makes traditional sailing (speed) and weaponry (e.g. the new-age cannons that are popping up) relevant if magic can simply override it? What counter has the world come up with (such as glyphed hulls or special materials)?

This case was "easy" because the ship wasn't moving, so in terms of repeating this tactic I'm not sure swimming and climbing aboard a ship that's moving will be a simple athletics check. So while they can of course still MS or DD, the climbing aboard tactic seems dubious. And in a world where it does happen then countermeasures such a barb wire or nails sticking out could be used as a hinder/stop those type of attempts.

In terms of actual battles involving boarding enemies, the captain shouldn't be the only target, there should be a number of strong stat blocked people such as the First Mate who would also have a good stat block and can keep the crew fighting even if the captain is killed. And of course in a fantasy world most ships would employ magic users of their own. Cramped quarter fighting can also hurt the PCs, like what if some of the regular crew are Dragonborn and so just blast away with non-fire breath attacks.

And finally if all the PCs leave their ship to board the enemy then that leaves their ship very vulnerable to attack, perhaps a 2nd pirate ship, or pirates who can themselves Misty Step and so counterattack.

 

[touc]

All good points. I'm running a 5E 2024 version of Skull and Shackles (Paizo) and characters simply have a lot more powers and options than in the prior edition. I figure the ship they attacked was low-hanging fruit. A quality ship is going to have enchanted defenses and more options than your swabs get obliterated by area attacks because the ship is a confined space. I feel like 2024 powers are making my combats more like One Piece (my kids just started watching the anime version) where I need some superpowers on the other side to compensate.

 

[TheSword]

All good points. I'm running a 5E 2024 version of Skull and Shackles (Paizo) and characters simply have a lot more powers and options than in the prior edition. I figure the ship they attacked was low-hanging fruit. A quality ship is going to have enchanted defenses and more options than your swabs get obliterated by area attacks because the ship is a confined space. I feel like 2024 powers are making my combats more like One Piece (my kids just started watching the anime version) where I need some superpowers on the other side to compensate.

I really enjoyed Skull and Shackles. I ran it for Pathfinder and WFRP and would consider 5e.

I’m interested in how you’ve found it, aside from the ship combat? You must be pretty far in if level 8?

 

[touc]

I’m interested in how you’ve found it, aside from the ship combat? You must be pretty far in if level 8?

I've fleshed it out quite a bit (as I do with all stuff), scouring the Paizo forums for ideas, and mixed in some Azlanti / Ghol Ghan subplots (from their ancient feud with Golarian's version of aboleths, using the Lost Outpost starting adventure of that campaign) and some of the Dungeon oldies converted for the Saltmarsh Book (Tammeraut, A+, and currently running the Styes).

Too much to include here, but if you ever run it, lemme know and I'll post my notes. I spent a TON of time researching and prepping. I found Books 1 ran great, but every other book I've only snagged the bare bones idea (e.g. Book 2 get a ship refitted, get a minor base at Tidewater, get some plunder). I'm planning on changing the entire finale to discovering that the Eye of Abendego has been possessed by an ancient elder force previously imprisoned by combined effort of the Azlanti and Ghol Ghan, and this force makes the Eye sentient. A living hurricane that only wants to destroy. The Cheliax invasion will be a secondary issue, complicated by my PCs accepting a Chelaxian colony at Tidewater Rock.

At level 8, we're currently at Port Peril, without enough Plunder to get a Letter of Marque, but doing a covert favor for one of the Hurricane King's agents (tie in: Styes adventure).

Book 1 addons and conversion notes attached.

 

[TheSword]

I've fleshed it out quite a bit (as I do with all stuff), scouring the Paizo forums for ideas, and mixed in some Azlanti / Ghol Ghan subplots (from their ancient feud with Golarian's version of aboleths, using the Lost Outpost starting adventure of that campaign) and some of the Dungeon oldies converted for the Saltmarsh Book (Tammeraut, A+, and currently running the Styes).

Too much to include here, but if you ever run it, lemme know and I'll post my notes. I spent a TON of time researching and prepping. I found Books 1 ran great, but every other book I've only snagged the bare bones idea (e.g. Book 2 get a ship refitted, get a minor base at Tidewater, get some plunder). I'm planning on changing the entire finale to discovering that the Eye of Abendego has been possessed by an ancient elder force previously imprisoned by combined effort of the Azlanti and Ghol Ghan, and this force makes the Eye sentient. A living hurricane that only wants to destroy. The Cheliax invasion will be a secondary issue, complicated by my PCs accepting a Chelaxian colony at Tidewater Rock.

At level 8, we're currently at Port Peril, without enough Plunder to get a Letter of Marque, but doing a covert favor for one of the Hurricane King's agents (tie in: Styes adventure).

Book 1 addons and conversion notes attached.

That’s sounds awesome. I never thought to include aboleth but I did something similar with the Ghol Ghan. Adding dungeons and mysteries. I adapted Varnhold Vanishing into the island of empty eyes because I wanted to increase the cyclops factor.

Thanks for sharing the notes. Definitely interested to see you it progresses.