Perdido Street Station -- spoilers aplenty!!! You have been warned!

[Desdichado]

So, I just finished Perdido Street Station, by China Miéville. It's difficult to sort out exactly how I feel about it; the book comes with so much hype that I really didn't know what to expect. Anyway, here's a few discussion points:

• It's not as revolutionary as all that, really. It's like William Gibson, only fantasy instead of sci-fi, and the plot almost seems to be a combination of a a Robert Ludlum book and Alien. The atmosphere and writing style were kinda Mervin Peake and H.P Lovecraft combined. Oh, it did many new and fascinating things alright; just that the premise isn't nearly as unique or original as many have made it out to be. But the slake-moths were some darn cool villains, alien and scary, unlike Lovecraftian monsters that are alien and just stupid, more often than not. The scene where Mayor Rudgutter and his cronies go to visit the Ambassador of Hell is brilliant. The Weaver could have been brilliant, although the fact that it was a hyper-intelligent spider makes it a potentially very alien and strange character, but in an all-too mundane façade.
• The moralizing and politics was kinda tiring at times. Luckily, they faded into the background for the most part, but that background was still so strongly steeped in it that they were impossible to completely ignore. Of course, the fact that Miéville actually ran for office on a strongly socialist platform explains it, but I would have enjoyed it more without it. In particular, Isaac's morality is called into question, although maybe that was the point. It was almost difficult to root for him at the end of the book, as he came across as somewhat sanctimonious and self-contradictory when he betrayed Yagharek and simply left him on his own after conveniently taking all of his money.
• The book wasn't very well-paced. I remember someone here on these boards (Pielorinho maybe?) saying that if you didn't get caught up in the book by the second or third chapter that it probably just wasn't for you. Since an even halfway competent editor could have easily chopped about 100 pages of fat from the beginning of the book without making it any the worse for wear, I find that an odd claim. It took me three times to power through the first 30% or so fo the book, and finally at that point it got pretty good. I think Miéville was simply too in love with his setting to stop describing it in minute detail, forgetting for quite a while that a plot would have been nice. Even later on, he detours for completely superfluous pit-stops, like that chapter on the handlingers. Now, granted, I'm a staunch Tolkien apologist, so I can't really complain too much about rambling that doesn't necessarily advance the plot, but Miéville is no Tolkien, and the beginning of his book is lacking in both the cozy likability of reading about the hobbits in their natural habitat, and the brilliantly executed information dump that is "The Shadow of the Past" which immediately creates a sense of some urgency and danger for Frodo. In Perdido Street Station nothing of the kind happens until almost page 200.

Despite this somewhat negative sounding litany of critique, I actually enjoyed much of Perdido Street and am certainly glad I perservered and read it finally. I think it becomes a victim of its own hype, though -- it can't possibly live up to the imagined brilliancy that I've heard it described as, probably from people who had no expectations and were subsequently blown away by Miéville's skillful weaving together of multiple genres.

 

[d4]

keep in mind i read it about a year ago, so my memory of it may be lacking in parts.

It's difficult to sort out exactly how I feel about it; the book comes with so much hype that I really didn't know what to expect.

i still feel the same way, a year later. i can't rightly say if i really enjoyed it or was simply put off by the grandiose weirdness of it all. or perhaps those are the same things. it is true that i still find myself thinking about it every now and then.

It's not as revolutionary as all that, really. It's like William Gibson, only fantasy instead of sci-fi, and the plot almost seems to be a combination of a a Robert Ludlum book and Alien.

the Gibson analogy is a good one, i think. Perdido definitely gives the feeling of cyberpunk in a fantasy world. as far as revolutionary, in what sense are you meaning? i think he came up with some pretty "out-there" ideas to fill his fantasy world, so in that sense the book may be considered revolutionary (in the sense of not following the mainstream). instead of elves and dwarves and orcs, we get frog people, little gargoyle people, beetle-headed women, and cactus people. where the heck did the idea for cactus people come from??

on the other hand, beyond their weird appearances, the nonhuman characters of Perdido ended up being pretty much the standard "humans in rubber suits" that is often seen in fantasy and sci fi. Isaac's girlfriend, the khepri woman whose name i've forgotten, came across very human in the book and not very alien at all.

of course, that may have been the point. it might be harder for readers to buy Isaac's love for her if she were truly alien.

The atmosphere and writing style were kinda Mervin Peake and H.P Lovecraft combined.

more Peake than Lovecraft, i think. (i've never liked Lovecraft's writing, though, so i am biased in this opinion.)

But the slake-moths were some darn cool villains, alien and scary, unlike Lovecraftian monsters that are alien and just stupid, more often than not.

the slake-moths were wonderful monsters. they simply could not be confronted directly, leading to much of the twists and turns of the latter half of the book.

The scene where Mayor Rudderkin and his cronies go to visit the Ambassador of Hell is brilliant. The Weaver could have been brilliant, although the fact that it was a hyper-intelligent spider makes it a potentially very alien and strange character, but in an all-too mundane façade.

the Ambassador of Hell scene was one of my favorites in the book. the realization the mayor came to afterwards, that the screaming echoes from Hell must've began before the Ambassador spoke was particularly chilling.

about the Weaver, i got the impression that it was supposed to be unfathomably alien, but it seemed possible to get a handle on its motivations and behavior from the book. perhaps not completely, but enough to make it a little bit understandable, which i sensed it wasn't supposed to be.

(few writers have been able to get across a sense of the truly alien -- one of the few that i think actually worked was the sentient ocean in Stanislaw Lem's Solaris (and no, i've not seen the recent movie based on the book, so i have no idea if the movie did the book any justice).)

The moralizing and politics was kinda tiring at times. Luckily, they faded into the background for the most part, but that background was still so strongly steeped in it that they were impossible to completely ignore. Of course, the fact that Miéville actually ran for office on a strongly socialist platform explains it, but I would have enjoyed it more without it.

i wasn't aware of Mieville's political career, which may be why i didn't really pay much attention to or notice the politics in the book. sure, there were the labor strikes and radical newspapers and what-not, but they struck me as appropriate Victorianesque background elements. did you know about Mieville's politics before reading the book? perhaps that's why you paid more attention to it? just a thought.

(of course, i'm notoriously blind when it comes to political writing in fiction. i can read Heinlein and not see the politics. )

In particular, Isaac's morality is called into question, although maybe that was the point. It was almost difficult to root for him at the end of the book, as he came across as somewhat sanctimonious and self-contradictory when he betrayed Yagharek and simply left him on his own after conveniently taking all of his money.

definitely. i was very upset with Isaac over what he did. i can see where Mieville was justifying Isaac's actions to the reader, but i still thought he should've shown more sympathy for Yag.

The book wasn't very well-paced.

i read the book in less than a day and a half, so i don't recall anything about the pacing... the whole book just flew by for me. (i'm a slow reader; i usually take two or three weeks to finish a typical 300-400 page paperback.)

Now, granted, I'm a staunch Tolkien apologist, so I can't really complain too much about rambling that doesn't necessarily advance the plot, but Miéville is no Tolkien, and the beginning of his book is lacking in both the cozy likability of reading about the hobbits in their natural habitat, and the brilliantly executed information dump that is "The Shadow of the Past" which immediately creates a sense of some urgency and danger for Frodo.

i can see that. it seems like nothing in Perdido is "cozy" or truly "likeable"; the whole city oozes a feeling of discomfort and unease to me. so you are right, there's no "safe spot" in the beginning of the book that welcomes the reader and then throws into sharp contrast the dangers that follow.

on the "info dump" angle, Mieville seems to introduce something new to the setting with every chapter, extending it in every direction. that does give a sense of a living, breathing world full of mystery -- but it also can lead to sensory overload... (i remember thinking about halfway through the book: "Waitaminute.... sentient hands?? where the heck did they come from??")

Despite this somewhat negative sounding litany of critique, I actually enjoyed much of Perdido Street and am certainly glad I perservered and read it finally. I think it becomes a victim of its own hype, though -- it can't possibly live up to the imagined brilliancy that I've heard it described as, probably from people who had no expectations and were subsequently blown away by Miéville's skillful weaving together of multiple genres.

that's an astute observation.

i still think highly of the book, even though i'm not sure how much i "enjoyed" it. and i'm also not generally a fan of fantasy literature in general and settings that mix magic and technology in particular.

 

[Pants]

Despite this somewhat negative sounding litany of critique, I actually enjoyed much of Perdido Street and am certainly glad I perservered and read it finally. I think it becomes a victim of its own hype, though -- it can't possibly live up to the imagined brilliancy that I've heard it described as, probably from people who had no expectations and were subsequently blown away by Miéville's skillful weaving together of multiple genres.

Very true. I found that while I wasn't blown away by the book as most reviews led me to believe, it was damn entertaining. In fact, while I agree that the pace for the beginning of the book is rather... awful I was still grabbed by it relatively quickly, if only because I quite liked some of the characters, Isaac in particularly.

• The whole 'handlinger' subplot was a waste to me. It ate up at least two to three chapters to show... what? That the slake moths are nigh invincible? The Weaver's battle with them showed that point better. It seemed like a small subplot that Mieville threw into the book just to be 'new' and 'edgy.' Sentient hands... oooo, he's imaginative. Unfortunately, the subplot went absolutely nowhere.
• I also thought that the whole Lin subplot with Motley went nowhere. It was effectively a set up for the final scene in the book. A scene that, while important, didn't need so many chapters devoted to Lin agonizing about Motley's sculpture.
• I still think the cactacae are a dumb idea. Walking, talking cactus people. Weird.
• What was with Jack Half-a-Prayer? He comes out of nowhere to save Isaac and Co. near the end, but it's never explained why he does so? Am I missing something intuitively obvious?
  
  Still, while I gripe alot, I found that there was a lot to like in the book.
  
• The Slake Moths were great villains. Very cool.
• The Weaver was an excellent character. Almost Gollum-like.
• The Ambassador of Hell was a great, magnificent scene. Especially when Rudgutter figures out that the demons are afraid of the Slake Moths.
• I kinda liked the job-riot scene. Perfectly established that the people of New Crobuzon, despite being in a terribly alien world, still suffer the same problems as us and they deal with them in the same ways. It also helped to establish how ruthless Rudgutter was.
• Lemuel Pigeon was the perfect anti-hero. He was in it for the money, he made that perfectly clear. He had no emotional bonds to anyone but himself, yet I still found his death to be... rather emotional. Poor, ruthless bastard.
• With the ending, I figured that Isaac was screwed either way. Either he helps a rapist (which is very near what happened to Lin...) or he backs out on a friend. I was kind of hoping that he would help Yag, but... I would never want to be in such a position. What a terrible choice...

 

[s/LaSH]

I read it based on the hype and wasn't disappointed. It has its flaws, sure; it tries so very hard to be different, but the end is almost a Scooby-Doo solution. With, y'know, cool creepy weirdness. The unique stuff comes off great, and the feel of it is very punk (with whatever prefix you desire: thaumo-, dungeon- and cyber- are all slightly applicable).

I betcha I could draw cactacae that looked cool, although they're not given much unique racial character besides being big and strong. That might be intentional; the City as melting-pot, breaking down all comers into subjugate little peons for the government. The khepri communities seemed exempt to this, and Lin's rebellion and merging with the city goes against the theme, but perhaps that's purposeful too - innocent little Lin thinks she's cool but is really just waltzing further into the wolf's den.

I was also a little disappointed in the lack of repercussions during the story. The thing people will remember in years to come is probably the vodyanoi riot. Nothing flashy happened, no real consequences for the city despite this absolute bioweapon being unleashed in their midst. Sure, everyone involved was changed forever, but... I didn't get the impression that anything changed. Which again might be on purpose; we've saved the day and are now wanted criminals, angst angst angst.

Jack Half-A-Prayer could have done with more screentime earlier in the piece, unless the intent was to emphasise just how huge New Crobuzon really is, with all its own stories going on and battles fought every day that nobody cares about. Which would be fine if the theme wasn't introduced right at the very end.

It's always easy to pick holes in something, of course; it's on finest clothes that stains will be seen. I liked the sum of the book's parts, however. Very different, and from me that's a compliment.

 

[Spatula]

The atmosphere and writing style were kinda Mervin Peake and H.P Lovecraft combined. Oh, it did many new and fascinating things alright; just that the premise isn't nearly as unique or original as many have made it out to be.

The only Lovecraft I see in the book is the idea of very alien beings that can't be comprehended by mortals. Mieville's writing style certainly doesn't bear any resemblence to Lovecraft's.

The plot isn't original - no plot is. The breath of fresh air comes from Mieville's imagination more than anything.

The moralizing and politics was kinda tiring at times.

In particular, Isaac's morality is called into question, although maybe that was the point. It was almost difficult to root for him at the end of the book, as he came across as somewhat sanctimonious and self-contradictory when he betrayed Yagharek and simply left him on his own after conveniently taking all of his money.

I honestly can't fathom the politics complaint. Or moralizing complaint, either. There wasn't any sermonizing that I saw. And none of the characters are pure and holy and totally good and upstanding - it's not that type of novel. Isaac is forced to make a difficult choice at the end, a no-win situation really. I certainly don't fault him for his decision - if anything, he makes the 'right' choice, in refusing to help a friend escape justice for his actions.

The book wasn't very well-paced. I remember someone here on these boards (Pielorinho maybe?) saying that if you didn't get caught up in the book by the second or third chapter that it probably just wasn't for you. Since an even halfway competent editor could have easily chopped about 100 pages of fat from the beginning of the book without making it any the worse for wear, I find that an odd claim.

I think losing 100 pages would make for a worse book, myself. The story definitely takes off after the captive slake-moth hatches, but there really isn't anything wasted in what comes beforehand - it all has some relevance to the overall plot.

But then, I've never had a problem with 'meandering' storytelling. You mentioned Tolkien... I have a good friend who took a year to get through "Concerning Hobbits" at the start of FOTR, then got bogged down again in the middle of TT for several months. I don't know, I have trouble comprehending that sort of thing. I'll read anything as long as it's well-written, I guess.

 

[Olive]

I know it has flaws, but I liked it probably as much or more as anuy other book I read last year. The ambassador scene was amazing, the weaver was cool yadda yadda yadda. The politics I loved, but that's probably because I come from a simialr political and academic background to Meiville. I actually saw an interview with him late last year talking about The Scar, which isn't as good as PSS, but he talked alot about how he was fascinated by the grotesque. Given that I am also fascinated by the grotesque in art (Francis Bacon is my favourite painter) I suspect that is why I liked it.

I have becoem mildly obsessed with China Meiville, party because between politics, academia and music we share piles of interests. I'd love to meet the man, although there's a few things about him that reek of an overbearing arrogance (his writing on Tolkein, which I more or less agree with, is a good example of that).

I'm a CM fanboy. But even liking drum and bass can't make me like King Rat.

 

[Desdichado]

I thouhght the Lovecraft connection was pretty obvious. Miéville himself has labelled himself, for what it's worth, as New Wierd, and the successor of the Weird Tales tradition, of which Lovecraft, naturally, was the poster child. And the alien nature of the Weaver and the slake-moths are what Lovecraft really wanted to do and usually failed -- they're actually alien and scary.

His style also is similar to Lovecraft's in a way; his overblown, rambling prose, laden with baroque adjectives -- although that may not be a tribute to Lovecraft per se. Especially since that was Lovecraft aping Clark Ashton Smith's style, for the most part.

Spatula, you seem to be looking for overt sermonizing, but I already said upfront that it wasn't overt, it was simply seeping out of the background. Although as d4 points out, I may have seen it because I already knew a bit about Miéville politics before I read it.

I struggle with books that don't hook me right away. I didn't used to -- it used to be nothing to me to read entire truckloads of books that were mediocre at best. But now that I'm working professionally and come home to four kids, I think I subconsciously budget my free time away from things that I'm not really enjoying. I read PSS and at the end of the day I enjoyed it, but at times it felt like reading an assignment at school. I'm curious what you think is really important and necessary from the first 150-200 or so pages of the book that it couldn't be trimmed by almost 50%. To me, that was just a rambling, meandering exercise in character and setting description.

 

[nikolai]

Can I ask what's so cool about the Ambassador of Hell? It sounds intriguing and I keep on hearing mentions of it.

 

[Desdichado]

The descriptive language, for one thing. Have you read the book? I'd summarize the scene for you, but I don't want to spoil. Of course, if you've read the thread, you've already had the end of the book spoiled anyway...

 

[d4]

I betcha I could draw cactacae that looked cool, although they're not given much unique racial character besides being big and strong. That might be intentional; the City as melting-pot, breaking down all comers into subjugate little peons for the government.

the cactacae definitely looked cool in my mind's eye, so i don't doubt someone could draw them well.

as far as your second point, i think that helps explain i question i raised -- that most of the nonhumans in the book didn't feel that different from the humans. it could be seen as a reaction by those minority cultures in adapting to the majority culture they find themselves in. (something that happens quite often in the real world.)