OSR Pirate Borg - Math Thoughts

[Retreater]

Disclaimers

This is just me being loose with math. I'm not a data scientist – I’m just a GM that can tell when things aren’t going the way I prefer. Along with that point, I’m also discussing my preferences as a gamer and the groups I run – this is not a sweeping generalization for the entire TTRPG hobby. The point of this discussion is to help me “math” out the game so I can make on-the-fly adjustments to Pirate Borg and similar OSR titles to improve the experience for my players – I am not attempting to “yuck anybody’s yum.”

Situation

I was running a Pirate Borg adventure for a group of 3 players with limited OSR experience. I was using an official Free RPG Day adventure and the rules from the Starter Box. The game impact of the quick deaths was mitigated by a QR code instant character generator. We were having a pretty good time having characters that lasted only a few turns before “bring in the next pirate.” Lots of laughs, nothing more than an entertaining one-shot. Until the last encounter, when the math and probability turned the game into an unfun slog for us.
The main villain of the adventure has 66 HP. I don’t know if this is typical for Pirate Borg, but I have a feeling it’s just an OSR-ism and reference to “666,” being edgy, and maybe nostalgia for Lolth’s AD&D hp from back in the day. Well, in a “Borg” game, 66 HP is a lot. And it’s also not fun (for us). Let me explain.
The flat DR target to hit is 12, that means you roll a d20 and add your bonuses to get a 12. That’s essentially the same for any enemy (Armor absorbs damage in this system). Assuming that you might be a Brute that hits on a 10 or you might have a Strength bonus to help, you’re probably needing to roll around a 10 to connect with the enemy. Ergo, you have around a 50% chance to do damage.
A typical weapon in Pirate Borg does d6 damage with no bonus for Strength. On a hit, your average damage is 3.5. My loosey-goosey Retreater math will say that if you hit 50% of the time, and the average damage for a hit is 3.5, then the average turn for a character will produce 1.75 points of damage. (It makes sense to me – hopefully you’re following.)
At that rate, to whittle down 66 hp, we’d need around 38 actions to kill the baddie – which is approximately 10 rounds around the table. If you’re breezing with 3-4 minutes per round, you’re looking at 30-40 minutes for a single combat, which is repetitive and boring for the OSR.
The saving grace of many OSR systems to avoid combat slogs is a Morale system. Let’s examine that. In Pirate Borg against a solo enemy, you check when the enemy is at 1/3 health (in this case, after 44 HP of damage). This would take 25 actions (approximately 6 turns around the table) to cause sufficient damage to trigger a Morale check. The enemy’s Morale was 11, which is tested on 2d6. There is only an 8% chance to roll 11 or 12 on 2d6. Thus, there’s only an 8% likelihood to end the combat after merely 25 actions.

What It Looks Like in Play

So we played the climactic battle for about 30 minutes. It was not epic. After a few rounds I stopped speaking in character as the villain with funny quips and taunts. After a few more rounds we stopped describing attacks and misses. Then we were just saying the numbers we rolled. Then finally, we were just dropping dice and only mentioned damage if we hit.
Just four grown adults sitting in silence looking at numbers and waiting until it was over.
I’ve had a similar experience with ShadowDark at a convention. Combats take too long because of a combination of low hero damage and hit probability, high enemy health, and probably also lack of “big damage” magic (or Sleep).

The Fix

So yes, I’m aware that I could’ve had Morale trigger at a lower threshold, or if a character made an Intimidation roll, or if they had Bribed the villain, or any number of other options. But we have design and procedures in games for a reason. If I just decide by GM fiat when “my bloodlust has been satiated” and decide to end a combat, that’s not really playing a game.
I need to math out some options, including lowering enemy HP and/or increasing heroic damage. It’s not about survivability – it’s about maintaining the pace of play and excitement.
Has anyone else run into this issue? Any ideas of how to address it?

 

[Scribe]

I dont have my *borg stuff handy, but that does seem like a high amount of HP for a *borg enemy. Also, doing little to no damage in return?

I would think at that point something is off in terms of the encounter/party balance.

 

[Retreater]

I dont have my *borg stuff handy, but that does seem like a high amount of HP for a *borg enemy. Also, doing little to no damage in return?

To be clear, the players were doing little damage. The enemy did d10 (5.5 average) to up to 3 characters a round.

 

[Scribe]

Thinking on this (during work calls lol) I'm sure there is an OSR 'escalation' mechanic.

Like after round 5, all rolls get a +1 so that hits are happening? After round 10 its a +2, and on and on.

Now, a single action/attack, 3 PCs, 1 Boss? That should be doable in seconds, not minutes, but its still anti-climactic and can get tedious if everyone is whiffing.

 

[Scribe]

To be clear, the players were doing little damage. The enemy did d10 (5.5 average) to up to 3 characters a round.

So did people die? Was it getting close? Maybe I misread the overview.

 

[Tigris]

Well I guess the idea is (at least thats what I normally get from OSR) that you do not kill such an enemy with attacking, but with underhanded tactics. Like try to let the mast fall on the enemy. Try to push the enemy from the ship to make them drown. Try to persuade the GM that you have eaten lots of eggs for breakfast and that if one player holds the enemy and you fart directly into his face that should knock them off etc.


The point of OSR is that it is not balanced math wise and that you need to be clever, aka guess what the GM allows/wants to hear, in order to overcome hard obstacles.

 

[Retreater]

So did people die? Was it getting close? Maybe I misread the overview.

Yes. All our players lost multiple characters. I tried to introduce replacement characters as quickly as possible throughout the adventure.

The final fight took place in the dungeon of a haunted fortress where prisoners were being kept to be sacrificed. I rolled randomly (following the adventure room description) and had 5 prisoners there. They were able to join the fight as replacement characters - but that was going to be the limit. If the group couldn't beat the baddie after that, well, it would be mission over.

 

[Retreater]

Well I guess the idea is (at least thats what I normally get from OSR) that you do not kill such an enemy with attacking, but with underhanded tactics. Like try to let the mast fall on the enemy. Try to push the enemy from the ship to make them drown. Try to persuade the GM that you have eaten lots of eggs for breakfast and that if one player holds the enemy and you fart directly into his face that should knock them off etc.


The point of OSR is that it is not balanced math wise and that you need to be clever, aka guess what the GM allows/wants to hear, in order to overcome hard obstacles.

I get that this is the ideal way the OSR works. But it's never stated. It's not in the book. No suggestions about how much damage a mast would cause if it lands on you. How to handle pushing an enemy off the boat. What IS in the book is combat mechanics that can't deal with the bloated HP and a Morale system that can't break the enemy's too-high Morale.
If it's all just "GM Fiat" for the system to work as a game, then it's not really a game. At least in my opinion. It's just my friends trying to amuse me for 3 hours until I let them win.

 

[Scribe]

Yes. All our players lost multiple characters. I tried to introduce replacement characters as quickly as possible throughout the adventure.

The final fight took place in the dungeon of a haunted fortress where prisoners were being kept to be sacrificed. I rolled randomly (following the adventure room description) and had 5 prisoners there. They were able to join the fight as replacement characters - but that was going to be the limit. If the group couldn't beat the baddie after that, well, it would be mission over.

OK then either the dice run cold, or the encounter balance is off. /shrug

I do think that an escalation type mechanic is worth exploring though, I would be stunned if it had not been done before.

 

[Tigris]

I get that this is the ideal way the OSR works. But it's never stated. It's not in the book. No suggestions about how much damage a mast would cause if it lands on you. How to handle pushing an enemy off the boat. What IS in the book is combat mechanics that can't deal with the bloated HP and a Morale system that can't break the enemy's too-high Morale.
If it's all just "GM Fiat" for the system to work as a game, then it's not really a game. At least in my opinion. It's just my friends trying to amuse me for 3 hours until I let them win.

Yeah thats the thing in many OSR (and the borg are especially minimalist) it assumes the people have this "common knowledge". Thats how they can be so slim, because they leave stuff away which most OSR players know.

The idea is "it does not need to be stated because thats just how you play (OSR) RPGs" it kind of assumes everyone knows some really old D&D version and how people played.

And yes its assumed that all these things not stated is GM fiat, the GM determines everything missing. It comes from the "GM is god" mindset, so the less restrictions for the GM the better.


It rewards "clever ideas", the idea here is that "we can use common sense in what works and what not works", but yeah in practice this just means GM decides what works in this world. If you allow it they can be "clever" and fart the enemy to death.


You can find many discussions about this but here one linked with advice: https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?thr...bout-your-strategies-in-combat-as-war.615343/

• Set the ship on fire Use oil to set stuff on fire if they dont burn themselves
• Prepare traps and hire underlings to attack before the fight.
• "Basically, it's all up to your DM on how successful these sort of plans are, so instead of playing the game you play the DM."
• "That's a good point--if you have an inexperienced DM, you may well end up playing him/her instead of the system. A useful strategy when this happens is to hand authority concerning 'what works given the game world's physics' over to the table* as much as possible while the DM gets a feel for making judgement calls. Before long, he/she will get into the swing of things and learn how to use the gameworld physics to make fair calls."
• etc.

So yes these type of games come all down to "we simulate the physics of the world and the GM decides/knows how it works" and because of that there are no procedures guidelines etc. for it.