OSR Pirate Borg - Math Thoughts

I mean, yeah. Absolutely. A GM needs to be able to make adjudications on the fly to handle unforeseen issues that could arise.
Sure, not everything can be covered, but I agree with you common scenarios should be.
But when OSR games give you pages about combat, entire chapters of monsters with stat blocks, that's clearly not what their purpose is. Yet, the mantra we keep hearing is "you shouldn't fight in OSR games." My friend, that is what the majority of your book covers.
Good to be fair combat does also just need more material in general than non combat. Because you need some player options, different enemies etc. Its often overrepresented in page numbers.
Are they bad game designers?
No. I would not say that. They just have a different goal.

They could have as the goal to make as much money with as little work as possible. So make only minimum rules, dont test it, put it out there with nice art. If that is the goal then Mork Borg is really efficient!

Or the goal can be to recreate this specific OSR gameplay with some people like (and many others hate).
Do they not test it?
Balance is not a concern in OSR. Not caring about balance is a feature, so I would assume they dont test it (thats more efficient).
Are they beholden to be compatible with previous bad game design?
Well they do want to recreate specific almost 50 year old gamedesign, and gamedesign, as everything, did improve A LOT in the last 50 years.

You would not want 50 year old treatment in a hospital, or 50 year old teaching material in a school or a 50 year old computer etc. either.
Because - if we're being honest - I think most of us can agree that 30+ actions to drop a single foe in a "rules-lite" game is bad game design.

Well only if the goal is to have fun fights, and I am not sure if this is the goal of OSR gameplay.

Monopoly as one example was designed to be an absolutely miserable experience and not fun. And I think the gamedesigner 100% succeeded in this, so the gamedesign did what it should so its good gamedesign, its just the goal which is not to our liking.
 

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There is absolutely no need for GM is god, there are GM less RPGs, solo RPGs, RPGs with limited GM might, RPGs which try to be simulations with mechanics etc.
I don't understand where that notion of "GM god" comes from. GM is an impartial referee.
solo RPGs rely on oracles and GM emulators, if there isn't anything doing a GM role that's a cyoa and not a TTRPG.

If a game has a complete and closed ruleset, i.e. it describes any possible transition from any possible game state to another, and thus doesn't require a GM in any form, it's not a TTRPG. It's a boardgame with superficial TTRPG elements.
In ideal GM for me just is a machine playing the premade adventure as good as possible, with player fun as their nr 1 priority, and with the main job of playing monsters and speaking NPCs (according to what the premade adventure tells what the main message is).
OK.
I play RPGs to live stories together with my friends as equals, for sure not to humor elitism of some people.
Now I'm almost certain there is a story to this whole GM is God thing.
Sounds like you had a bad experience with a bad GM and now you are extrapolating it to all sort of GMs
 

30+ actions, 3 players, 10 rounds of combat? I mean honestly I would have expected the Monster to kill them all by that point. What was the average damage being done by the players?
3.5, if they hit.
All of the characters were killed. Fortunately there were NPC prisoners who could help fill in the gaps. They did get down to the final 3 prisoners, though.
 

But enemy Morale being so high that it's mostly unstoppable? Having an enemy's HP so high that it takes 30+ actions to drop them? ... Those are not unforeseen issues.
Correct, not unforeseen. This is obviously intently designed so that the players are forced to think creatively. Once again that being a boss encounter after many other [as I suspect] encounters that would have made clear how long does it take to dispose of an X hp enemy.
you shouldn't fight in OSR games
I don't know where are you getting that. You should fight in OSR games but you should do it on your own terms. Mathematically speaking simply doing "I roll to attack" is going to get you killed reliably again and again. This is by design.
You have friction with this playstyle, we get it. That doesn't make the playstyle bad. It's just not to your taste.
I think most of us can agree that 30+ actions to drop a single foe in a "rules-lite" game is bad game design.
I didn't read the adventure, so it might be a bad adventure for all I know. But that thing alone is not bad game design.

Since you've started pointing fingers, I'm going to assume you are following the golden rule of treating others as you would like to be treated, so and I'm going to go ahead, be frank and say that it's quite obviously bad GMing.
Why didn't the GM telegraph that ordinary attacks would take forever to kill the boss? "Your cutlass barely scratches him, basically like poking an elephant with a tablefork, it would take forever to cut him down like that."
Why wasn't there an I would assume intended TPK that should have taught players the boss can't be approached by simply rolling him to death for 40 minutes?
Why didn't the GM try to hint players with possible alies/solutions/weaknesses?
 

I don't understand where that notion of "GM god" comes from. GM is an impartial referee.
There is no impartial referee, this is how the dicators try to call themselves.
solo RPGs rely on oracles and GM emulators, if there isn't anything doing a GM role that's a cyoa and not a TTRPG.

If a game has a complete and closed ruleset, i.e. it describes any possible transition from any possible game state to another, and thus doesn't require a GM in any form, it's not a TTRPG. It's a boardgame with superficial TTRPG elements.
Well there is no clear line between boardgames and RPGs and boardgames have in general better gamedesign. I really don't think that the GM is what makes an RPG, its just a necessary evil in most cases.

Now I'm almost certain there is a story to this whole GM is God thing.
Sounds like you had a bad experience with a bad GM and now you are extrapolating it to all sort of GMs
No, not really. I am quite picky when it comes to people to play with. I dont have too much bad experience, but many people, especially in online forums like here, give me this really bad vibe of GMs wanting to play god.

Correct, not unforeseen. This is obviously intently designed so that the players are forced to think creatively. Once again that being a boss encounter after many other [as I suspect] encounters that would have made clear how long does it take to dispose of an X hp enemy.
If this is intended, then make the boss not take damage from attacks. Here simple and easy. This tells you that you should not attack the boss. The players can't know the boss is ridiculously overstated.
I don't know where are you getting that. You should fight in OSR games but you should do it on your own terms. Mathematically speaking simply doing "I roll to attack" is going to get you killed reliably again and again. This is by design.
You have friction with this playstyle, we get it. That doesn't make the playstyle bad. It's just not to your taste.
Well the problem is not the playstyle, its the bad communication and the non finished products.

If fights should not be foughts directly, tell that to the players and the GM directly. Have this as part of the rules. Dont rely on obscure knowledge on outdated similar games.

Since you've started pointing fingers, I'm going to assume you are following the golden rule of treating others as you would like to be treated, so and I'm going to go ahead, be frank and say that it's quite obviously bad GMing.

This is just lazy. A good adventure, especially starting adventure, tells the GM what to do. If a GM needs to make their own decision and fix an adventure thats 100% bad gamedesign.
Why didn't the GM telegraph that ordinary attacks would take forever to kill the boss? "Your cutlass barely scratches him, basically like poking an elephant with a tablefork, it would take forever to cut him down like that."
Why wasn't there an I would assume intended TPK that should have taught players the boss can't be approached by simply rolling him to death for 40 minutes?
Why didn't the GM try to hint players with possible alies/solutions/weaknesses?

Again: This is the job of the adventure. If this is not written in the adventure, then its badly designed. If this is the job of the GM then the rules of the system at least need to tell it. "Hey we are lazy game designers, we did not balance stuff, and fights are normally not winable, so you need to fix this by making the players come up with "clever solutions" is the minimum.

Or rather this should be told in the beginning of the rules also to the player:

"This is a serious game, but our main mechanic is the party game mechanic of player judge. The GM is the judge, and you should try to guess what they think / what they allow. So this is not about tactics, this is about guessing what the GM wants to hear. Think about cards against humanity, but without humor. Everything is serious here and wrong guess means often death. So be ready to flatter and sweettalk your GM, maybe he even allows you to fart an enemy to death."
 

Why didn't the GM telegraph that ordinary attacks would take forever to kill the boss? "Your cutlass barely scratches him, basically like poking an elephant with a tablefork, it would take forever to cut him down like that."
Oh, I tracked the HP in front of them. I don't hide that kind of information. (Which is sometimes a problem that I can't fudge to lower HP midway through an encounter.)
Why didn't the GM try to hint players with possible alies/solutions/weaknesses?
1) There's a gang of assassins that were hinted at. The players didn't want to go after them for help.
2) The party did have access to random potions that could've helped or hindered them. They tried these but they probably succeeded only in making the situation worse.
3) The enemy appears at a random location in the dungeon, so there's not much description for a climactic showdown that can be planned. As it turned out, the party at least had 5 prisoners to help their fight.

Since you've started pointing fingers, I'm going to assume you are following the golden rule of treating others as you would like to be treated, so and I'm going to go ahead, be frank and say that it's quite obviously bad GMing.
Yes. I know it's bad GMing. Anytime a game devolves into 30-40 minutes of meaningless dice slogging, it's become a waste of time. But that's why I'm here, trying to figure out how to fix this math.
I might be a bad GM, but I'm not a hopeless GM. I want to improve, which is why I'm posting.
 

There is no impartial referee
There are no black swans because I've never seen one moment?
here is no clear line between boardgames and RPGs
there is and it's having a completely closed and complete ruleset with no need for a referee role. that's a boardgame
The players can't know the boss is ridiculously overstated.
in TTRPGs the GM describes the world to the players. The players would have known this if GM would have done the job
If fights should not be foughts directly, tell that to the players and the GM directly
A lot of OSR books do tell it directly, but there is also joy in discovering things, even if a little trial and error is involved

this is not about tactics, this is about guessing what the GM wants to hear
No. It's not about what the GM wants to hear. The GM shouldn't have a ready solution, and adventures often don't give one as well. That's by design, so there is no one correct solution. That way the players come up with something and the GM, acting as a impartial referee, makes a ruling if this could work.
 

But that's why I'm here, trying to figure out how to fix this math.
I might be a bad GM, but I'm not a hopeless GM. I want to improve, which is why I'm posting.
I've been going the entire thread why you shouldn't try to "fix the math".
Having players [statistically likely] fail if they rely only on face-rolling the opposition is the intended design.
There is nothing to fix in that regard.

You could have tried fixing how you approach GMing and how your players approach challenges.
But at this point of discussion I'm inclined to believe that is not your intention.
 

Oh, I tracked the HP in front of them. I don't hide that kind of information. (Which is sometimes a problem that I can't fudge to lower HP midway through an encounter.)
Well you can still make an enemy randomly flee when it reaches a certain hit point number, they might be really suspectible to pain or easily afraid etc. but yeah it feels a bit bad as player.

Yes. I know it's bad GMing. Anytime a game devolves into 30-40 minutes of meaningless dice slogging, it's become a waste of time. But that's why I'm here, trying to figure out how to fix this math.
I might be a bad GM, but I'm not a hopeless GM. I want to improve, which is why I'm posting.

I think you just need the courage to say "ok this game/module is just bad" and throw it away and stop/end things when you encounter something like this.


Players will understand and maybe you have then enough time to play something which is actually well made and fun. So maybe just have some "plan B" with you (maybe a party boardgame like cards against humanity, or a short RPG which you know is good etc.)
 

I mean I dont think OSR is for you @Retreater at all. I dont know why you keep subjecting yourself to it honestly and thats not a slight or insult, you do not seem to enjoy it at all from concept to application to experience.

That said, there is still room to question 'wait if this is going to take 10-15 rounds to finish, one way or another, is this experience correct?'

I would rather be dead inside 3 rounds, than suffer through 15 rounds where little to nothing is happening. I dont think that's an unfair statement.

Retreat is always option, or as we used to say in MtG 'Scoop?'

I still also think an escalation mechanic is a solution here, just apply it across the board so either the victory or loss happens quicker.
 

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