OSR Pirate Borg - Math Thoughts

[orangefruitbat]

It sounds to me like that adversary should have been treated like a sort of puzzle. And the adventure tried to warn you of that but you (and your players) promptly ignored all that. Like the point was to whittle down the enemy and then have the remaining players administer the coup de grace. That sounds like it would have been fun.

I'm going to have to go with Liteberer on this one. The final boss is the Flail, the Ghoul Lord of Tortuga, who has been terrifying an entire city of pirates. It's a short starter adventure (only 12 pages, including art and maps), but it does tell the GM to warn the players that they will need cleverness, treachery or allies on their side. One of the random encounters in town is actually Anne Boney, the Queen of Thieves in town fighting a duel with the Flail. She's no slouch with 25 hp herself, and command of a whole band of pirates. A wall of muskets (2d6 damage each), a barrel of gunpowder, or a cannon from the fort placed inwards would all do the trick.

Don't forget that players can always use Devil's Luck do do max damage on a roll and nat 20s double damage and ignore armour. A group of 4 players might have 4-8 luck points. So even 66 HPs is not impossible.

OTH, you can always halve the monster HP to speed up of fight and players will never no. That's a classic fudge, old school or new school.

 

[Retreater]

OTH, you can always halve the monster HP to speed up of fight and players will never no. That's a classic fudge, old school or new school.

But it shouldn't be necessary. We're living in 2026 with 50+ years of game design behind us. A modern game, designed for beginning players and GMs, that needs us to cheat to make it fun is problematic.

 

[conankeep]

But it shouldn't be necessary. We're living in 2026 with 50+ years of game design behind us. A modern game, designed for beginning players and GMs, that needs us to cheat to make it fun is problematic.

Why did you ignore the main points [again] just to cherry-pick a side-note?

 

[Deset Gled]

I get that this is the ideal way the OSR works. But it's never stated. It's not in the book.

If you don't expect people to interact with HP and attack rolls, then you need to put in something like "here are some options to defeat the bad guy" especially in a starter promotional adventure designed for new GMs.

I took the time to get this adventure and read through it, and I had a very different experience from you in regards to what's in the book. To whit, the adventure straight up tells you it's not a good idea to just attack the Big Bad in a direct fight, and gives plenty of options for the PCs to get extra support or find alternate solutions. The rest in spoilers for those that might want to play this later

Spoiler: Adventure spoilers

The really big one is that the "Hooks and Jobs" section describing this boss straight up says: "GM Tip: This hook is a great choice for a one-shot, but it will not be easy! Drop hints that PCs might consider guerrilla tactics, an assassination plot instead of an all out assault, or recruiting more pirates to their cause."

The next phase of the Timeline also gives the DM a guide to other option the PCs have defeat the Big Bad: "[Big Bad] and his undead are driven out/destroyed, either by pirates from Nassau, Admiral's buccaneers, religious zealots, or the PCs." So, right there it's telling you that driving the Big Bad away instead of killing him is one intended outcome, and lists three groups of allies the PCs can use to help defeat him. And there's even more allies that can help fight Big Bad elsewhere in the adventure, including Anne Bonny and multiple prisoners the Fort.

Any beyond all that, the Fort where you fight the Big Bad is the most heavily armed place in the entire campaign. It features: multiple locations of multiple cannons, turrets with swivel guns, and multiple store rooms of black powder. The game may not spec out all the details, but it's doing it's best to be in your face with the fact that they exist.

So, putting all that together, I think it's pretty clear that just walking up and facing the Big Bad in a direct fight is designed to be a TPK. Did they straight up say you couldn't? No. It was left as a valid choice for people who want to play the game that way. But at a certain point it really was your choice. It's certainly not some mystery that the authors are gatekeeping to OSRs masters. It's pretty clear, especially for a free product.

 

[Scribe]

But it shouldn't be necessary. We're living in 2026 with 50+ years of game design behind us. A modern game, designed for beginning players and GMs, that needs us to cheat to make it fun is problematic.

Reading some of the analysis this is again a clear miss on expectation and execution. You could have fixed it for your players, who chose it seems about the worst path they could.

I think if there is a failing its that the Big Bad didnt wipe the party fast enough.

 

[Retreater]

Why did you ignore the main points [again] just to cherry-pick a side-note?

Ok.
A. My party spent their Devil's Luck to survive. They didn't spend it to hit and do big damage. Maybe they could've been more offensive and reckless. It would have at least ended things sooner, for good or bad.
B. The adventure didn't provide any stats for folks to help. If that should've been an option, it could've been listed. (In fact, I couldn't find anything suitable even in the entirety of the Start Set box.)
C. Yeah. I could've had the Pirate Queen go with them. It wouldn't have helped....

***Because the problem is with the inherent design and math behind Pirate Borg. The odds of hitting. The amount of damage done per strike. The bloated HP of the enemy. Which is the whole point of this thread. The math doesn't work for the kind of game it's trying to be.

 

[Scribe]

The math doesn't work for the kind of game it's trying to be.

I think it very much does. This specific boss fight just has expectations that you didnt catch or your players didnt want to play into and then you didnt fix.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Pirate borg is not trying to be a superheroic game where you fight on-level enemies. It's meant to be a rules lite, deadly system where coming up with Outside the Box plans is easy to adjudicate and required to survive. Hostile combat math is intentional and reinforces those themes. Sounds to me like it worked perfectly.

Note that this adventure is a sandbox. Nothing within the adventure forces you to fight the "Big Bad", The Flail, head on. The "Unfair" math you mention in your OP is there specifically to discourage you from fighting him.
The only thing driving the party to even attack him is the first adventure hook - which comes with the following caveat: "GM Tip: This hook is a great choice for a one-shot, but it will not be easy! Drop hints that PCs might consider guerrilla tactics, an assassination plot instead of an all out assault, or recruiting more pirates to their cause."

I get that this is the ideal way the OSR works. But it's never stated. It's not in the book.

See above.

This was for fun, high adventure, laughs, and taking risks. A loopy one-shot. Pirates of the Caribbean - not fantasy Vietnam.

We're living in 2026 with 50+ years of game design behind us. A modern game, designed for beginning players and GMs, that needs us to cheat to make it fun is problematic.

"You are in charge. Of the rules, of the setting, of the NPCs, and of vibes at the table." - "It’s not possible to “break” this adventure. Make it your own"

The adventure didn't provide any stats for folks to help. If that should've been an option, it could've been listed.

"Default to “yes”. You’re on the PCs’ side!"
"The rules are only guidelines. If there isn’t a rule for something, just make one up, or borrow one from an RPG you know."

 

[orangefruitbat]

Ok.
A. My party spent their Devil's Luck to survive. They didn't spend it to hit and do big damage. Maybe they could've been more offensive and reckless. It would have at least ended things sooner, for good or bad.
B. The adventure didn't provide any stats for folks to help. If that should've been an option, it could've been listed. (In fact, I couldn't find anything suitable even in the entirety of the Start Set box.)
C. Yeah. I could've had the Pirate Queen go with them. It wouldn't have helped....

***Because the problem is with the inherent design and math behind Pirate Borg. The odds of hitting. The amount of damage done per strike. The bloated HP of the enemy. Which is the whole point of this thread. The math doesn't work for the kind of game it's trying to be.

The quick starter adventure provides stats for the Pirate Queen (p. 7) and for regular pirates (p. 13), all of whom could help. There is also a QR code for a random PC generator that could create NPCs on the fly. If you have the starter box, then the included adventure (Trapped in the Tropics), then that includes three types of soldier that could be reskinned (p. 15), a marooned pirate stat block (p 18), and a couple of named NPC stat blocks (p. 29). So there are lots of options to help.

Now the big bad with his 66 HP is a tough opponent. It's not meant to be a fair fight for four level 1 characters - it's likely that they will get killed, and added to the Ghoul Lord's retinue. It won't even take very long since he can attack 3 opponents at once in melee and will likely drop a starter character in one hit (again, barring devil's luck). Two to three rounds tops. Which is fine. It's fast and easy to create new characters. It's a learning opportunity for players to OSR games that they need to approach this opponent differently with their new set of pirates.

So say the new PCs don't rush in by themselves and look for allies. They engage in some roleplaying and somehow recruit a crew of pirates (say 8) to avenge their earlier PCs, and they make sure that everyone has muskets. It's pretty old-school to gets lots of hirelings. They now lure the big bad out of the fort (he doesn't stay in the final room of the dungeon and sometimes even wanders into town as a random encounter), and ambush him on the dirty streets of Tortuga. 12 musket (2d6 damage each) volleys ring out from rooftops and alleyways and windows! At an average 7 damage each, 50% hit chance, that means 48 damage right at the start (18 hp left). The muskets will take a couple of rounds to reload, so the PCs might need to finish their foe off before he escapes (none of our hired guns are willing to risk getting into melee). The fight is still dangerous and possibly fatal to some, but will likely only last a couple of more rounds. It's a great sendoff to a nasty foe. They then steal a ship with their new crew and seek out riches and glory! The end.

Now, the quick start doesn't include rules for the swivel guns, cannons or gunpowder casks, but most GMs could probably extrapolate something (e.g., if a musket does 2d6 damage, then a swivel gun could be 2d8 or 2d10). The starter set does include rules for bombs and using cannons at PC scale (x5 HP damage).

Math seems fine to me.