Please rate the Dwarven Defender
- Thread starter smetzger
- Start date
I've been playing one for several levels now and its quiet a powerful class. You don't get all the feats of a fighter, but you end up with much more hit points in the long run, a better armor class, better skills, and damage reduction that's better than the barbarian's.
Defensive stance has its limited uses. It's not nearly as powerful as rage. But park yourself in a doorway or in the middle of a fray and you are doing good.
And they have some good choices at epic levels as well including Bulwark of Defense, Mobile Defense (both of which increase the usefulness of Def. Stance), Fast Healing, and Damage Reduction.
Of course, that endurance pre-req stinks, and so does toughness, but that's the way it goes sometimes.
Defensive stance has its limited uses. It's not nearly as powerful as rage. But park yourself in a doorway or in the middle of a fray and you are doing good.
And they have some good choices at epic levels as well including Bulwark of Defense, Mobile Defense (both of which increase the usefulness of Def. Stance), Fast Healing, and Damage Reduction.
Of course, that endurance pre-req stinks, and so does toughness, but that's the way it goes sometimes.
Tyrrell
First Post
I can imagine a dwarven defender trying depiratealy to get enough reach to make defensive stance usable.
spiked chain, polymorph other, the psychic warrior second level "reach" power. heck if you went with enough levels of psychic warrior you could get polymorph self.
Good thought!! I'm off to create myself a psychic warrior/ dwarven defender with 20' reach, combat relfexes and stand still
Wish me luck.
spiked chain, polymorph other, the psychic warrior second level "reach" power. heck if you went with enough levels of psychic warrior you could get polymorph self.
Good thought!! I'm off to create myself a psychic warrior/ dwarven defender with 20' reach, combat relfexes and stand still
Wish me luck.
Darklone
Registered User
The dwarven defender is exactly what I don't like about dwarves in particular and Prestige Classes in general. Defensive stance is silly (as well as any DMs who park monsters around someone doing this). The DR is lots too high (making barbarians obsolete, core classes shouldn't be obsolete).
Celebrim
Legend
This is a fine example of a PrC with good flavor, but for which it is not at all clear that there needs to exist a separate class for it.
Why aren't the 'Dwarven Defenders' merely veteren fighters?
There is far too much overlap between the 'Dwarven Defender' and barbarians. Most of the change is the change of flavor between the core class and the prestige class, which implies to me that the core class is not generalized enough to be a true core class. What really needs to happen here in an ideal world is for 'Barbarian' to be rewritten as 'Fanatic' and 'Dwarven Defenders' be changed to multi-class Fighter/Fanatics, Fighters, Fanatics, Cleric/Fanatics, and what not. Not every occupation needs to get its own class, otherwise we are taking a huge step backwords towards the problems of 1st and 2nd edition.
Any of the extra class abilities that the Dwarven Defenders gain that aren't themselves class abilities of a core class, probably should have been rewritten as feats available to everyone that qualifies. Core classes should be allowed to maintain thier unique identity, and if the flavor of the class is intervening with logical extension of the abilities to some group, then the flavor needs to be extended. Barbarians really don't have to be fanatical about 'chaos', they can just be fanatical about 'something'.
Of course, I'm of the opinion that this is true of ALL prestige classes, so maybe I'm biased.
Why aren't the 'Dwarven Defenders' merely veteren fighters?
There is far too much overlap between the 'Dwarven Defender' and barbarians. Most of the change is the change of flavor between the core class and the prestige class, which implies to me that the core class is not generalized enough to be a true core class. What really needs to happen here in an ideal world is for 'Barbarian' to be rewritten as 'Fanatic' and 'Dwarven Defenders' be changed to multi-class Fighter/Fanatics, Fighters, Fanatics, Cleric/Fanatics, and what not. Not every occupation needs to get its own class, otherwise we are taking a huge step backwords towards the problems of 1st and 2nd edition.
Any of the extra class abilities that the Dwarven Defenders gain that aren't themselves class abilities of a core class, probably should have been rewritten as feats available to everyone that qualifies. Core classes should be allowed to maintain thier unique identity, and if the flavor of the class is intervening with logical extension of the abilities to some group, then the flavor needs to be extended. Barbarians really don't have to be fanatical about 'chaos', they can just be fanatical about 'something'.
Of course, I'm of the opinion that this is true of ALL prestige classes, so maybe I'm biased.
Lord Zardoz
Explorer
Contradictions...
Intresting view. On one hand your saying that the class sucks because only a fool would choose to remain in melee with someone using Defensive Stance. On the other hand, its too powerful because it has extreme damage resistance.
I would say that Dwarven Defender prestige class is a perfect example of what a Prestige Class should do. A prestige class should fill a narrowly defined role at the expense of flexibility. The Dwarven Defender does just that. On one hand, you gain various abilities and characteristics that make you very storng defensivly, and therefore VERY hard to kill. On the other hand, you end up with some very well defined weaknesses. A dwarven defender is singularly unable to close in fast for the kill, or prevent an enemy from running away. The DR is probably the one thing that keeps the character from becoming a pincushion for archers.
END COMMUNICATION
Darklone said:
Intresting view. On one hand your saying that the class sucks because only a fool would choose to remain in melee with someone using Defensive Stance. On the other hand, its too powerful because it has extreme damage resistance.
I would say that Dwarven Defender prestige class is a perfect example of what a Prestige Class should do. A prestige class should fill a narrowly defined role at the expense of flexibility. The Dwarven Defender does just that. On one hand, you gain various abilities and characteristics that make you very storng defensivly, and therefore VERY hard to kill. On the other hand, you end up with some very well defined weaknesses. A dwarven defender is singularly unable to close in fast for the kill, or prevent an enemy from running away. The DR is probably the one thing that keeps the character from becoming a pincushion for archers.
END COMMUNICATION
Shard O'Glase
First Post
I put defensive stance right along side HIPS. It works great when people don't metagame. If people metagame and counter abilities they probably never heard of, or shouldn't be able to recognize on sight then yes their lame. ake defensive stanc, the dwarf runs up to the fire giant and whacks it really good going itno a defenive stance. Now said fire giant says hmmm being an expert on dwarf rpesige classes I innately recognize the subtle differences in how that dwarf is standing he's using a defensive stance I shall move so it no longer is useful. 
Well yeah then it sucks, if the giant is palyed correctly it liekly has no idea the dwarf went into a defensive stance even if he knows that they exist, and so would not ove, and wold instead swing away and try to ebat the dwarf into a bloody stain.
Same goes for HIPS, the rogueish character fades form view in front of the party. "we roll out the daylight stones banishing al shadows from the area" OK 1, when did shadow dancers start advertising there weaknesses, this is probably one of the best kept secrets in the world.(yes campaign worlds can very) 2 how do you know its a shadowdancer and not merely a silent spell, a ring of invisibility or countless other options.
So again its a cool ability as long as people don't metagame.
Well yeah then it sucks, if the giant is palyed correctly it liekly has no idea the dwarf went into a defensive stance even if he knows that they exist, and so would not ove, and wold instead swing away and try to ebat the dwarf into a bloody stain.
Same goes for HIPS, the rogueish character fades form view in front of the party. "we roll out the daylight stones banishing al shadows from the area" OK 1, when did shadow dancers start advertising there weaknesses, this is probably one of the best kept secrets in the world.(yes campaign worlds can very) 2 how do you know its a shadowdancer and not merely a silent spell, a ring of invisibility or countless other options.
So again its a cool ability as long as people don't metagame.
Malin Genie
First Post
I think it is a pity that the designers of the class didn't think about opponents with 10 ft reach being able to beat the Dwarven Defender silly while not being able to be hit in return in preventing any movement by the DD in defensive stance. One 5ft step per round would have made the ability actually useful for a fighter/defender.
As it stands, however, it is much more useful for a cleric/defender to stance, as they get the AC and hp bonus and can continue to cast spells.
As it stands, however, it is much more useful for a cleric/defender to stance, as they get the AC and hp bonus and can continue to cast spells.
Li Shenron
Legend
BALANCE:
The class features a collection of defensive abilities, most of which are replica from core classes. It seems to me that it is quite well balanced: compared for ex. with the Barbarian, it has AC bonus, Defensive Stance and better ST in place of Rage and more skills.
FEATURES:
The only unique ability is the Defensive Stance. While the benefits are definitely better than the Rage ones (less Str but a net +6 in AC), the fact you can't move is an excessive hindrance: it makes the ability useful only in some circumstances. If by default a 5ft step was allowed, it would have made much more sense, without overpowering the ability at all (it would still be a serious hindrance, but less ridiculous).
FLAVOR/RP:
The class is a very good idea: a dwarven warrior experienced in defence, possibly in defense of someone else or a place of importance. Given the traditional view of Dwarves as very resistant beings, difficult to move them from their "positions" (both in physical and metaphorical sense), the racial nature of this PrCl hits the point very well, and can be used by the DM to add more cultural distinction to the race by creating an elite of NPCs for example.
REQUIREMENTS:
Well thought, less well designed: with these requirements, every "beginner" Dwarven Defender is supposed to have already a good combat background (from BAB) and defensive/resistance abilities (the Feats), and that is very fine. But honestly, there is no real reason to require EXACTLY those feats: if they had been instead Dodge, Expertise and Iron Will, it would not have made any difference. I think the best solution could have been a list of 7-8 feats, among which the candidate should own at least 3 or 4. Instead, Endurance and Toughness look like they are just "costs" to qualify, which is generally a symptom of coward* design: requirements which are going to be never taken advantage of during the career in the PrCl reveal the writer's fear of making the PrCl too powerful.
On the other hand, it is good that no requirement implies the PC to be of a specific class.
*I apologize with the author that this expression sounds insulting: I don't want it to be... I just can't recall a better word in English
DESIGN:
The global design is very good: the writer collected the best defensive abilities around, changed some of them (AC bonus/DR with different progressions than Monk's/Barbarian's), except Reflex saves, which anyway makes perfect sense to be not the best.
A modest question: why duplicating Uncanny Dodge with a different name and then even clarify it stacks from the same ability of Barbarians and Rogues?
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OVERALL: 7
The class features a collection of defensive abilities, most of which are replica from core classes. It seems to me that it is quite well balanced: compared for ex. with the Barbarian, it has AC bonus, Defensive Stance and better ST in place of Rage and more skills.
FEATURES:
The only unique ability is the Defensive Stance. While the benefits are definitely better than the Rage ones (less Str but a net +6 in AC), the fact you can't move is an excessive hindrance: it makes the ability useful only in some circumstances. If by default a 5ft step was allowed, it would have made much more sense, without overpowering the ability at all (it would still be a serious hindrance, but less ridiculous).
FLAVOR/RP:
The class is a very good idea: a dwarven warrior experienced in defence, possibly in defense of someone else or a place of importance. Given the traditional view of Dwarves as very resistant beings, difficult to move them from their "positions" (both in physical and metaphorical sense), the racial nature of this PrCl hits the point very well, and can be used by the DM to add more cultural distinction to the race by creating an elite of NPCs for example.
REQUIREMENTS:
Well thought, less well designed: with these requirements, every "beginner" Dwarven Defender is supposed to have already a good combat background (from BAB) and defensive/resistance abilities (the Feats), and that is very fine. But honestly, there is no real reason to require EXACTLY those feats: if they had been instead Dodge, Expertise and Iron Will, it would not have made any difference. I think the best solution could have been a list of 7-8 feats, among which the candidate should own at least 3 or 4. Instead, Endurance and Toughness look like they are just "costs" to qualify, which is generally a symptom of coward* design: requirements which are going to be never taken advantage of during the career in the PrCl reveal the writer's fear of making the PrCl too powerful.
On the other hand, it is good that no requirement implies the PC to be of a specific class.
*I apologize with the author that this expression sounds insulting: I don't want it to be... I just can't recall a better word in English
DESIGN:
The global design is very good: the writer collected the best defensive abilities around, changed some of them (AC bonus/DR with different progressions than Monk's/Barbarian's), except Reflex saves, which anyway makes perfect sense to be not the best.
A modest question: why duplicating Uncanny Dodge with a different name and then even clarify it stacks from the same ability of Barbarians and Rogues?
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OVERALL: 7
One important thing to remember about defensive stance. Everyone has said how limiting it is to not be able to move for its duration. But there are two important things I wanted to point out:
a. a dwarven defender will likely have heavy armor and a 15 ft. move anyway...that's almost the same as not moving
b. you can end the stance whenever you want!
When I first started playing a DD, I would usually run up to the main bad guy and go into the stance. As Shard pointed out, its not like in a defensive stance suddenly armored shields surround the dwarf. So people rarely backed off. On the occassions where a foe with reach would try to use it, I would just drop the defensive stance, move up 5' (taking the -2 to Str) and continue to pummel him!
Even if you only get to use it 2-3 rounds out of its alloted time, its worth it for those few rounds. On one occasion, the extra 2 hp per level from the Con bonus kept me alive! Of course, the cleric had to hussle over before the stance wore off and I went to -20 hp....
a. a dwarven defender will likely have heavy armor and a 15 ft. move anyway...that's almost the same as not moving
b. you can end the stance whenever you want!
When I first started playing a DD, I would usually run up to the main bad guy and go into the stance. As Shard pointed out, its not like in a defensive stance suddenly armored shields surround the dwarf. So people rarely backed off. On the occassions where a foe with reach would try to use it, I would just drop the defensive stance, move up 5' (taking the -2 to Str) and continue to pummel him!
Even if you only get to use it 2-3 rounds out of its alloted time, its worth it for those few rounds. On one occasion, the extra 2 hp per level from the Con bonus kept me alive! Of course, the cleric had to hussle over before the stance wore off and I went to -20 hp....
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