D&D General Portable, Renewable Fuel Sources

[Stalker0]

A number of the above posts are a good argument why magic MUST have a cost. Otherwise, you end up with perpetual motion machines.

Yeah this is why the argument that high magic setting = modern economic system doesn't work when you allow magic items as they are written. Magic Items have 0 ongoing costs associated to them (if you use just the basic rules). So they represent the ultimate in high initial investment cost, low ongoing cost scenario. We don't have an equivalent for that in our markets. Things have maintenance, things have to be replaced. Energy costs are a major limitation to growth, etc etc.

Once you have powerful factions that recognize this (and have a long term view of things), they will quickly realize that manufacturing magic items is the ultimate in wealth and power generation. And after a few generations you would see such items replace more mundane means. Its just too cost efficient not to.


If you do want to replicate a more "normal" system (which takes me back to the OP), is you want magic items to require some kind of fuel to keep going. Now on a PC level you can handwave it, but once your at industrial scales that becomes a major consideration. 4e had the concept of "residdum", basically magical powder found from some sources or breaking down magic items. You might require supplies of that to be shipped to keep magic items functional. Once you do that, now your back to our more modern economic understandings. Magic Items are just technological machines taht require "power" and do labor that we can't do ourselves. We already understand how that works economically, so applying it to a fantasy setting becomes much easier.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Down this line of thinking you either end up with Eberron or Tippyverse.

 

[Marc17]

Typically, the cost of using magic is the inevitable magic apocalypse. Colorless fire rains down, floating cities fall from the sky, life withers and the planet turns into one large desert or some other drastic event that just leaves ruins behind for people to explore thousands of years in the future after everything rebuilds. Not to mention magical creatures being hunted until they are the last of their kind, probably for material components to pay for that upfront cost for magic items. If you want some sort of ongoing magical apocalypse, perhaps the magical ecosystem is what sustains all those magic items. As the creatures, exotic materials, and other magic are used up, magic over all weakens. That causes more use of magic to make up for the weakening which increases the rate of weakening until everything collapses.

Science does the same with deforestation, lead poisoning, extinction of plants and animals, climate change, or balrogs erupting from the depths because the dwarves mined too deep.

Of course, if you want those costs to be a thing in your game, you're going to have to force the physics, geopolitical, and racial concerns on your heroes and villains rather than let me go care free with their saving or ruining the day.

 

[Reynard]

Yeah this is why the argument that high magic setting = modern economic system doesn't work when you allow magic items as they are written. Magic Items have 0 ongoing costs associated to them (if you use just the basic rules). So they represent the ultimate in high initial investment cost, low ongoing cost scenario. We don't have an equivalent for that in our markets. Things have maintenance, things have to be replaced. Energy costs are a major limitation to growth, etc etc.

Once you have powerful factions that recognize this (and have a long term view of things), they will quickly realize that manufacturing magic items is the ultimate in wealth and power generation. And after a few generations you would see such items replace more mundane means. Its just too cost efficient not to.


If you do want to replicate a more "normal" system (which takes me back to the OP), is you want magic items to require some kind of fuel to keep going. Now on a PC level you can handwave it, but once your at industrial scales that becomes a major consideration. 4e had the concept of "residdum", basically magical powder found from some sources or breaking down magic items. You might require supplies of that to be shipped to keep magic items functional. Once you do that, now your back to our more modern economic understandings. Magic Items are just technological machines taht require "power" and do labor that we can't do ourselves. We already understand how that works economically, so applying it to a fantasy setting becomes much easier.

I have always liked the idea that magic ages the caster. It introduces the interesting question of who is willing to throw years away for power, as well as how mundane powers might try to entice or coerce wizards to do their bidding.

 

[Staffan]

The Decanter of Endless Water powering a turbine seems like an obvious choice.

Or just summon anything to turn a turbine, for that matter. Presto! Endless electricity.

See also: this link. (Comic's a bit too big to include here)

 

[Stormonu]

I don't know what everyone is talking about needing alternate fuel sources

• Flameblade in the hearth to keep warm in winter
• Decanter of Endless Water for all your water needs
• Myrlund's Spoon to keep you fed (or Bag of Tricks for those who want more wholesome food)
• Bag of Holding instead of closets
• Daern's Instant Fortress for all your housing needs
• Sending Stones for long-distance communications

And as silly all of that is, so is a worksheet for your fantasy realm to figure out whose got coal.

 

[Minigiant]

In my setting, dwarves use elemental runes of fire, air, water, and earth to sustain life underground with infinite energy and materials.

It lets the continuously mine and ship out metal ore, precious gems, and rare stones out into the aboveground.

However the runes are heavily regulated by clans and the easiest way to from an all-dwarve alliance is for a nondwarf to possess these greater runes. Even evil duergar will all with their kin if a someone steals a rune.

Because overuse allow elementals and giants to backdoor summon into your hall.

Lesser runes are sold and traded as windstorm, wetstone, cinderstone, and hard rock.

Hill dwarves have taught humans to burn wood into cinderstone as a way to transport wood fuel.

 

[GMMichael]

how would affect where your village/towns/castles exist and how does it change power dynamics?

Well, for starters, if you solve the limited resources problem, your city can grow without expanding geometrically (except for residential zones). And the population expansion problem can be solved with a good war here or there. Or a self-inflicted bio-weapon.

High Elves get to keep their forests. Why? They all have a cantrip they can change daily.

I thought it was wood elves who maintained their forests? And not even because of magical prowess. It's because they have humility (and haven't yet been trampled by a race without humility).

Every setting book goes out of its way to tell you how rare and special level X characters are.

Explains why my shelf is short on setting books.

 

[Shades of Eternity]

Man, this reminded me of this Canadian film board of Canada film using dragons as a power source.

Blowhard

This animated short tells the story of J.B. Edwards, an Easterner who went west to create a fuel company called Consolidated Dragons. When the supply of dragons starts …

www.nfb.ca

 

[kigmatzomat]

Just noting you would still need the “backbreaking” to break up the dirt into “loose dirt” in the first place.

But your overall point is quite valid. Plentiful access to even basic cantrips would completely transform a society

As a spell on the druid list, making it require a shovel first seems....pretty suss.

I hate "natural" language...

Spoiler

In my engineering life it was "soil", "disturbed soil" and "compacted soil". Disturbed had been dug up, compacted had been made hard by vehicles, livestock, structures, etc. Then you have "is it soil?" Like hard pan that is rock-like from salts. (Although that can be dealt with by Shape Water dumping thousands of gallons of water on an area repeatedly...if you have water....)

IMO, if a wooden shovel can dig it up, Mold Earth can affect it. If you need a pick of any kind or metal tools to break it up, Mold Earth can only do "rock" functions, like colors/patterns and difficult terrain.

But assuming you do break it up manually with a mattock, You don't have to lift it at all, you just let it lie there. Lifting soil is hard because 1cf of soil weighs 100lbs. A 5x5x5 mass of soil weighs 6 tons (12,000lbs). That would require 5-6 trips in an F150 to move. and an elf just waves their hand and away it goes. Even uphill.