D&D General Portable, Renewable Fuel Sources

[Warnavick]

Isn't it like one of the basic principles to historic settlement design to build close to a reliable source of water? Even if it requires purification, that could be done with beer/ale processing. If you don't want your quasi medieval peasants boiling water. I don't ever think a decanter of endless water as a source of clean drinking water is ever as in high demand other than to vagabonds (ie adventurers) traveling inhospitable & unknown lands or maybe a natural disaster.

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

Yeah this is why the argument that high magic setting = modern economic system doesn't work when you allow magic items as they are written. Magic Items have 0 ongoing costs associated to them (if you use just the basic rules). So they represent the ultimate in high initial investment cost, low ongoing cost scenario. We don't have an equivalent for that in our markets. Things have maintenance, things have to be replaced. Energy costs are a major limitation to growth, etc etc.

Once you have powerful factions that recognize this (and have a long term view of things), they will quickly realize that manufacturing magic items is the ultimate in wealth and power generation. And after a few generations you would see such items replace more mundane means. Its just too cost efficient not to.


If you do want to replicate a more "normal" system (which takes me back to the OP), is you want magic items to require some kind of fuel to keep going. Now on a PC level you can handwave it, but once your at industrial scales that becomes a major consideration. 4e had the concept of "residdum", basically magical powder found from some sources or breaking down magic items. You might require supplies of that to be shipped to keep magic items functional. Once you do that, now your back to our more modern economic understandings. Magic Items are just technological machines taht require "power" and do labor that we can't do ourselves. We already understand how that works economically, so applying it to a fantasy setting becomes much easier.

With maybe a handful of specific exceptions (specific beats general, after all), don't mundane items also function that way too? A sword, once purchased, will always do 1d8 damage unless you feed it to a rust monster. There's nothing in the sword or the carriage or the plate armor statblock that says they need maintenance and repair, or they might deteriorate over time. We of course, assume that they do, because we assume they are identical to the swords, carriage or armor in reality. But we need to apply that assumption universally; either all items are impervious to deterioration, magic or otherwise, because nothing says they are, or we have to think logically and assume that over centuries of rubbing a crystal ball it is going to lose a bit of its shape?

 

[Umbran]

Isn't it like one of the basic principles to historic settlement design to build close to a reliable source of water?

It is almost like nobody read that I stipulated this was specifically for places where potable water wasn't available.

 

[Umbran]

Once you figure out you can keep feeding l the same troll to the pigs you can make a lot more bacon.

You want trollpigs? 'Cuz this is how you get trollpigs.

 

[Stormonu]

With maybe a handful of specific exceptions (specific beats general, after all), don't mundane items also function that way too? A sword, once purchased, will always do 1d8 damage unless you feed it to a rust monster. There's nothing in the sword or the carriage or the plate armor statblock that says they need maintenance and repair, or they might deteriorate over time. We of course, assume that they do, because we assume they are identical to the swords, carriage or armor in reality. But we need to apply that assumption universally; either all items are impervious to deterioration, magic or otherwise, because nothing says they are, or we have to think logically and assume that over centuries of rubbing a crystal ball it is going to lose a bit of its shape?

I seem to remember (2E?) having some note that magic items persist for 1,000 years then their magic fade. But that's long been dropped.

In my own homebrew, most magic items cease to function within a short span of the death or loss of its creator (usually no more than a year at most and a day at least for something like a potion); the exception is those items that have soul-bonded with another individual (i.e., attunement). An unattuned item degrades over time (and regains strength/recharges when bonded), and when the last individual attuned to it dies, so passes the magic in the item.

This means that passing an item along to an heir, while the owner is still alive is very, very important and hoarding magic items away in a closet, weapon rack or the like is a bad idea. Someone needs to be in possession of it or contact with it on a regular basis or the magic will fade. Magic weapons and the like don't just sit in dungeons forgotten for years waiting to be looted - if it's magical, someone's possessed it fairly recently, so smiths don't keep armor/weapon racks of enmagicked items on hand, preferring to make an item only when someone requests it. Heck, killing the local alchemist (or priest, for that matter) could result in a very bad time for anyone who's bought a potion from them.

The exception to this is, is of course, artifacts and relics. These items contain some of the soul of its creator or wielder and persist for ages. Destroying them partially involves the destruction of not only the physical item, but the memory of it and the memory of those who were associated with it.

 

[Umbran]

With maybe a handful of specific exceptions (specific beats general, after all), don't mundane items also function that way too?

That depends.

The Lifestyle Expenses section suggests that your lifestyle expenses cover mundane maintenance of your equipment. There is implication, but no strict rules, that you may have issues with maintenance if your lifestyle is too low.

 

[Warnavick]

It is almost like nobody read that I stipulated this was specifically for places where potable water wasn't available.

I did read that which is why I posted. As I see it, a place without water wouldn't be settled and a location with a non-potable water source should be able to clean it themselves like medieval London. At least on an earth like material plane. So to me you basically said the decanter is valuable where no one lives. If that makes sense.

I was hoping for a follow up on what those places would be that a population would want to settle without access to some form of water. As this community is often more knowledgeable and creative about these things than I am. The only thing I could think of is maybe nomadic cultures that can't guarantee a water source. Please share with me a few examples. Fantastical or grounded.

 

[Umbran]

I did read that which is why I posted. As I see it, a place without water wouldn't be settled

Sometimes you don't have a choice, or the world changes around you, and you have to adapt.

and a location with a non-potable water source should be able to clean it themselves like medieval London.

Mentioning, but setting aside that...
1) Cholera and dysentery were common ailments in London at the time, so, maybe they didn't clean the water as much as you suggest.
2) Part of London's solution was miles of lead lined piping to carry water from the Tyburn. I'm sure that caused no trouble to anyone at all.

...you seem to miss the point - this IS the game's version of "clean it themselves"! It is just using magic spells, since that's what the game actually gives you to work with.

At least on an earth like material plane. So to me you basically said the decanter is valuable where no one lives. If that makes sense.

Where no one lives?

I am sorry to have to correct your ignorance on this matter: today, right now, in the 21st century, about one-quarter of the planet's population - a couple of billion people - live without safely managed, reliable drinking water. And about 700 million have effectively no access to safe drinking water at all.

War, drought, and economic depression can and do limit people's access to clean water, and have since the beginning of civilization! I don't know what planet you have been on, but this one isn't one where everyone actually has always had good water to drink, cook, and use for hygiene.

 

[Marc17]

I was hoping for a follow up on what those places would be that a population would want to settle without access to some form of water. As this community is often more knowledgeable and creative about these things than I am. The only thing I could think of is maybe nomadic cultures that can't guarantee a water source. Please share with me a few examples. Fantastical or grounded.

Pretty much most of the high ground places you'd want to put a castle, acropolis, or hill fort. You can't just go out and get potable water during a siege. The thing that magical water and food really mean is that sieges couldn't try and starve out, which could take years in the real world, as if prepared, they could last much longer. Of course, this is fantasy, so it also means one can send the assassins and rogues over the walls at night to kill the priests and steal their decanters of water, alchemical jugs, and magical spoons. Of course, it's possible supplies (or attackers) could just be teleported in and out also.

 

[Warnavick]

Where no one lives?

I am sorry to have to correct your ignorance on this matter: today, right now, in the 21st century, about one-quarter of the planet's population - a couple of billion people - live without safely managed, reliable drinking water. And about 700 million have effectively no access to safe drinking water at all.

War, drought, and economic depression can and do limit people's access to clean water, and have since the beginning of civilization! I don't know what planet you have been on, but this one isn't one where everyone actually has always had good water to drink, cook, and use for hygiene.

I am not ignorant of this information. Why would you assume that of me? No one can live without water and its tragic many people across the planet, even in 1st world countries, have this struggle. Unless you have at least treatable water a person can not survive long without someform of assistance.

I feel I offended you in some way and I am sorry for my words. However I do not think what I said deserved this level of response. Thank you for your posts nontheless.