POV, Yeah You Know Me

It may work for you but I generally have a campaign 90% done before I ever talk to a potential player. All the decisions about races and classes are done. My players talk to me early on about the type of PC they want and the sort of background they want. I then suggest ideas based on the world as it exists until there is a fit.

I try to avoid putting unacceptable choices into player view, so my char gen handouts are usually/hopefully missing any unnaceptable choices. No Dragons on the PC list in WEG Star Wars, despite them being in GG4 Alien Races, for example.

Trek and Star Wars both have multiple canon sets, too. To a lesser extent, Dune and Alien. Must be clear which is in use before character gen.
When I ran a RIFTS campaign in the early 1990s, I went through the entire ruleset I owned- almost all of RIFTS, plus other Palladium games mentioned in the Conversion sourcebook, like Heroes, Inc.- and wrote up a short synopsis of every OCC & RCC I was allowing, including book & page numbers. It was somewhere between 7-10 pages printed out. I made several copies to hand out to the players.

It may sound excessive, but there were a LOT to consider, and it actually streamlined the decision-making process for the players.
 

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I directed a fair number of community theater plays and musicals. Only once did I say I’d direct whatever the group wanted, and the result was fine, but it definitely wasn’t one of the more memorable shows I’ve directed. And when running TTRPGs, I have always had a strong vision for what I wanted the campaign to be like, but that vision changes over time as the game actually gets played.

I’ve just started a 13th Age game where the players need to tell me why they have been sent to a fort on the far edges of the Empire, and I’ve made it clear to them that my intent is to run a game where they are geographically limited, have a chain of command, and spend time on building relationship and defining how they live, day to day. I have a set of four different threats that are active in the area and timelines for them.

So that’s pretty focused, but once we get into playing, a lot of it will change. My players co-create the world with me, so we may end up leaving the area, dealing with a new threat, or ending up playing a romance game.

For me, this works well — creating a strong POV for the campaign I want to run, and then modifying that as it develops. That way my players know they will have a cool, well-thought out start, but that their preferences and desires will take center stage as the campaign develops.
 

My first instinct was that this might have come from Oriental Adventures, but I don't see it in there. Could have been a Dragon article, perhaps. I definitely remember discussion of this concept in the 3E era.

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There’s potential issues of the dm not knowing their own pov
True. I find the DM's that do a lot of work on their setting never fall into this category. This is even true if their setting has multiple styles built into it: romance, comedy, horror, etc.
the dm failing to communicate their pov
This doesn't seem to happen if the DM has put in the work. At least, I have never seen it.
or the dm’s goals being uninteresting to a particular player, just in the realm of communication issues.
I am just lucky. The people, no matter which part of the country I lived in or age I met them, seem to be open minded enough to try things. This is not to say the groups I've played with haven't vetoed ideas, but any idea vetoed was genre related, ie. "We want fantasy, not Star Wars" type of thing.

As a side note, and only tangentially related to the topic, I think the charisma and status of the DM matters an awful lot when discussing these types of subjects.
 

True. I find the DM's that do a lot of work on their setting never fall into this category.

Amount of work does not ensure a point of view. DMs typically work without an editor. And that means they can do a lot of work and produce a muddled mess without any particular point of view to it.

This doesn't seem to happen if the DM has put in the work. At least, I have never seen it.

I have. A great many nerds I know can spend tons of time developing material, but no time on their communication skills.

Heck, I know GMs who have lost the difference between what they have in their head, and what they've told their players just in a regular session of play, much less about the overall campaign.

I am just lucky.

Yep. I am lucky too. I have a group who, while they have their preferences, will at least try anything I present to them.

But I am not sure such groups are all that common.
 

Yep. I am lucky too. I have a group who, while they have their preferences, will at least try anything I present to them.

But I am not sure such groups are all that common.
I think a good DM will not lack for players. We suffer with a lot of mediocre and still play. A good DM may not always have the same group but he will have a group.
 
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Esteemed everybody I may have forgotten and @Snarf Zagyg,

As we all know, the Snarfster here/you is/are absolutely, irrevocably, and above all, objectively right in everything he/you states/state in the OP, including any seemingly contradictory statements—and I say “seemingly” here coz contradictions are solely in the eye of the beholder (um..., no pun intended). Wherefore his essay on POV DMs is law carved in stone, as is everything he says about… players.

But first, a point of order of paramount importance: I am currently 25 years old, not a day younger, not a day older (why, happy birthday to me!). Wherefore any references to myself in periods that I wasn’t even born yet are to be considered poetic license, and not references to myself, or, if u prefer, an indication that I am talking out of my… [oops, is that Granny E putting her glasses down and reaching for the broomstick?], um, lamp. Whereby, in my defense, and otherwise in no relation at all to what I’ve just said, I should point out that “ass” is a perfectly acceptable term for a specimen of a subspecies of Equus africanus, or even as one of Equus asinus if you like, aka, in layman’s terms, a donkey. Then again, I don’t suppose one can actually talk out of one’s donkey, so there’s that. Hmm… can one talk out of one’s lamp, then? Well, of course one can, for The World Is A Pizza, to which, by the way, the only acceptable response is: “That is correct. Question is, tho: who is the anchovy?”
So, yes, I was born in 2001... Wait, when is my birthday? Oh, yeah, I never celebrate my birthday and it isn’t today that’s for sure. 2000, 2001, 2002? Um… So, yes, I was born some time in the very early naughties, and, crucially, came into this world with full knowledge of what had transpired in the AD&D world up until then … um... (#reincarnationisrealbutveryconfusing)

But I digress (read: saved by the bell).

So. POV DMs. And players in that light. And do they actually matter in this light? Well, no. IMHO and coz Nothing Really Matters (after Friedrich Ciccone).

See, in my neck of the woods, AD&D burst onto the stage trinkled onto very limited and small stage-like extensions of badly-lit backrooms of backwater libraries, only a couple of years after the PHB was published. And it did this on stages rented by the tabletop wargame simulation community, which comprised…, um, socially awkward…, um, old persons. Some of whom tried it on for a couple of times, until they decided it was for kids and not for serious people dressed up as Napoleon standing around tables discussing the intricacies of the conundrum of whether the dice were to determine when Blücher’d show up, or history, or this version of the (stenciled) rule-set or that, and, more importantly, whether any of that meant he’d actually show up at all before the library closed.

But, as today shows us, there was something to the game, at least. So it refused to go, and from the backrooms, it found its way into the wafer-thin circle surrounding these wargamers, to boardgamers, to a select younger “crowd”, students mostly, who’d grown up reading 70s fantasy and sci-fi … younger people who suddenly saw their inner world spoken to in an utterly fascinating way. And it was these younger folk who started yelling about it to their contemporaries, visiting said backwater library backrooms stuffed full of Napoleons and Blüchers coz “that was were it was happening”, meeting others like them, and from there on started renting their own badly-lit backrooms in even further out of the way backwater libraries.

And to these secondary backwater library backrooms came other young folk, among whom even some… brads(?)! Who immediately took off the moment they saw there were absolutely NO girls within miles of said room, never to return. In short, this led to a small group of people younger than the elderly Napoleons with an absolute, all-consuming fascination for the game, dedicated to it to the core, slowly (very slowly) expanding their numbers and getting more and more absorbed in the game to the point that only those of similar ilk could bear to be around them.

And if you were fortunate, you’d end up with a smallish, tight circle of friends with the same all-consuming fascination for the game, and then had a bloody brilliant time for many, many years—and more importantly, who were utterly and very gladly willing to accept anything and everything a DM had on offer that Saturday, as long as that meant playing AD&D.

People who played AD&D because they all absolutely loved it to bits.

Players.

But during these many, many years, one thing had happened, which led to another thing. For AD&D had become a phenomenon, especially in the States, and TSR (or whatever you want to call it) had grown with it to become a mega-corp(ish) that had also run aground in a well-documented process and was then bought by some wizards on a coast (WhatSea, something like that). And the other thing it led to was 3E…, um 3.5E as it would soon be known coz, well, coz 1E was written in High-Gygaxian, not to be understood by mere mortals no matter how clever they were (and they were very clever, coz they played AD&D).

So, not griping about 3/3.5E (though I could, and very well-supported at that—but I won’t). Not griping about TSR, SayWot—in fact, not even griping about ANYTHING, including players of whatever “edition”. Oh, re editions: there’s only three, well, four, but that’s another story.

And from here, things only got better. “Gamers” were now a thing (I mean computers), and a game called D&D 4E even pandered to them to such an extent that it … wait, I wasn’t gonna go there. And now we have 5E, “a return to the D&D of old” as the marketing blurb would have you … a-a-a-a-a-a-nd I’m also not gonna go there.

What I will register, is that the mass appeal of what we shall now have to call D&D, led to an influx of A LOT of people playing the game—I believe the number is, currently, in the millions, which is a far cry from the mere handful of fanatics in the early days. And among these, we shall certainly find “fanatics” like these players of the first hour, probably even a lot of them. Folk who simply cannot survive the weekend without a game, who spend the week hunkering for said weekend, consoling themselves with designing worlds, new characters, drawing maps, painting miniatures (if that’s still a thing), buying themselves silly on the gazillion “accessories” available these days, scouring the on-line for the incredible amount of D&D(-related) stuff available there, posting on forums, writing stories and session reports, even doing something I believe is called “apping” to their fellow players—anything D&D to get them through the week.

But it also includes a huge number of kitchen-sink players. Folk who have normal lives and don’t mind doing a bit of D&D for a couple of hours on Friday night before soccer calls--and have a bloody good time doing that. In fact, there may even be some brads(?) among them.

And that, mes amis, along with changing perspectives on life and culture and things in general, and the “dinosaur ways of old” in particular, is a significant thing here, player-wise. And among these millions of players, the percentage of folk who will not accept anything and everything a DM presents them with will NOT be zero.

Which it was among those who emerged from the first hour and had a bloody good time while it lasted.

Does any of this matter? Well, ignoring old Friedrich upstream, you decide whether it does. And how.

il kitten

P.S.: 2001! 2026 – 25 = 2001! Sheesh, how hard can it be? Must be an age thing.
 
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I think a good DM will not lack for players.

Oh, sure they can. Pulling together a group of copacetic adults, and keeping them together for months to do significant play, is not easy in the modern world. Not everyone manages it.

We suffer with a lot of mediocre and still play.

"Suffer"?
Look, my players are my friends. If I don't want to hang out with you in general, you're not going to find yourself at my table. There's no "suffering" going on.
 



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