D&D 5E Preview of the Witch Class I am working on

[Slit518]

Here is a preview of the Witch Class I have been working on. I have more than this completed in the actual file, this is just what I have trimmed down for the preview. Let me know what you think.











Now like I said, I don't have InDesign, I just use Apache Open Office.

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6803713]Slit518[/MENTION] I appreciate what you're attempting, but it's a bit of a mess.

1) First, there's no clear conceptual underpinning. "Witches are all different..." "Where they get their power is a different story" OK, apart from that second sentence being thoroughly awkward English, I've taken away nothing from these sentences about what a witch actually is. Compare your opening "identity sentence" to that of the PHB Bard:

[SECTION]Whether scholar, skald, or scoundrel, a bard weaves magic through words and music to inspire allies, demoralize foes, manipulate minds, create illusions, and even heal wounds.[/SECTION]

Even the Bard, the most jack-of-all-trades D&D class, has more coherent identity in that sentence than your witch. My #1 recommendation is to go back to your design notes and create a coherent "identity sentence" for your witch class that meaningfully distinguishes it from the other classes in D&D. Why should witch be its own class? I'm not convinced yet.

2) You're walking into some very nebulous territory including a drawback built into a class – 5e very deliberately avoids doing that. Also, thematically, the idea of making a sacrifice for power skates very close to the Warlock's wheelhouse. And finally, even if I as a reader manage to accept "yeah, ok, so in this guy's world witches are about sacrificing for power", I'm faced with conditions that totally shut down my witch character...

If I'm blind, that shuts down a huge amount of spells. If I'm deaf, you have me making Concentration checks just to cast spells with verbal components (hint: that's 99% of spells). If I'm paralyzed my options are...have a donkey cart in the dungeon? Maaaybe soul-less is an ok sacrifice, but that outright treads on the Warlock's thematic wheelhouse implying a bargain with an entity.

If you insist on going this direction, have a look at Pathfinder's Oracle class to see how they handle classic tropes like "the blind oracle."

3) Origin of Power... So how is Power of the Cosmos, which you describe as "alien", different from a Great Old One patron for Warlocks? How is Power of the Oceans different from a Storm Sorcerer? How is Power of the Heavens different from the Celestial patron for Warlocks? How is Power of the Hells different from The Fiend patron for Warlocks?

There's enough ambiguity between Sorcerous Origins and Warlock Patrons, that adding a *third* class with something like that is just too much. Moreover, if you look at witchcraft traditions from Europe (the ones many gamers seek to have in mind when hearing "witch"), they often were/are synergistic, blending a mix of techniques and religious/spiritual beliefs. They might be thought of as occupying a strange niche between sorcerer, wizard, cleric, and druid. So "Origin of Power" probably isn't as relevant to that conception of witchcraft. Where does a witch's magic power come from? The answer to that might be: anywhere he or she can get it.

4) Coven is the most identifying feature you've included in your witch class. "Coven" implies a gathering of like-minded witches. That's interesting! Only the Druid alludes to a society of druids by including the Druidic language; but "Coven" has the potential to outright make a society of witches part of the class/game. However, instead you solely make it the vehicle by which to give the witch some extra spells. Eh. That's kind of lackluster and definitely doesn't take the concept in the creative direction it has the potential to expand in.

Also, including scaling Origin of Power and scaling Coven features feels a bit redundant.

One possible interesting direction to take "Coven" is to augment the witch's spellcasting when they do some kind of circle magic with other spellcasters, or have non-spellcasters providing an offering of some kind (blood, gold, food, a dance, a song, lock of hair, etc).

5) Spell List. If you want to get really clear about what a witch is, creating the class spell list could help. For instance, witches could easily be imagined to cast charm person, cure wounds, and call lightning! They could easily break the usual divide where arcane-casters get fireball and divine casters get cure wounds -- so you'll want to put some thought into what spells a witch *shouldn't* get, which spells would be *outside* a witch's wheelhouse.

 

[Slit518]

Quickleaf, as I explained, this is just the preview. I left things off of the preview on purpose.

A Coven actually is what a character's archetype advancement is based upon. And a little bit of advancement from Origin of Power.

I have not laid out the spell list yet, but there will be a spell list. It will take a small bit of elements from several of the casting classes.

I will try and work on my introductory sentence to make it a bit more flavorful. I just jotted something down in my writing to fill the gap for now, perhaps I should of left it blank at best.

P.S.

I also wanted to give the witch a feel of some of the witches you hear/see that have given something up.

For example, ever watch something and you have the 3 blind hags (witches)? Or as in the medieval days it was thought witches sold their soul for power? I wanted to expand upon that. A paralyzed witch could be something similar to Bran Stark being carried by Hodor. Though, that would be inconvenient for another NPC.

One thing I will say, the witch will gain something that aids them with their sacrifice at level 9. It will be one of their Origin of Power features.

 

[Quickleaf]

Quickleaf, as I explained, this is just the preview. I left things off of the preview on purpose.

A Coven actually is what a character's archetype advancement is based upon. And a little bit of advancement from Origin of Power.

I have not laid out the spell list yet, but there will be a spell list. It will take a small bit of elements from several of the casting classes.

I will try and work on my introductory sentence to make it a bit more flavorful. I just jotted something down in my writing to fill the gap for now, perhaps I should of left it blank at best.

It's not just a matter of your base design being ok, and your "flavor" writing needing a bit of touching up.

The problem is at the conceptual level. And that being reflected in both your design and "flavor" writing.

 

[Slit518]

It's not just a matter of your base design being ok, and your "flavor" writing needing a bit of touching up.

The problem is at the conceptual level. And that being reflected in both your design and "flavor" writing.

Make a list of Pros & Cons for me, please?

 

[Quickleaf]

Make a list of Pros & Cons for me, please?

I just did in some detail, but to distill it to a TL;DR...

CONS

1) Lacks cohesive identity/concept. What *is* a witch? Both narratively and mechanically? And how is this different from other spellcasters? You need to answer that question first. If it were me, I'd go back to the sources of literature/media that inspired my design and catalogue the traits I feel belong to a witch. So I'd do my research. Then I'd look over those traits, compare them to D&D's lore and other spellcasting classes, and start to hone in on a unique identity narratively as well as mechanically.

2) Drawbacks too crippling / Drawbacks as class features is anti-5e design.

3) Origins of Power redundant/overlapping with Sorcererous Origins & Warlock Patrons.

4) Coven is just bonus spells. Feels like to could easily be rolled in Origins of Power or, like I'm suggesting, expanded to take over the design space you have now devoted to Origins of Power.

PROS

1) Coven has a lot of potential design space. You could really create something with a unique identity by playing this up.

OTHER CONSIDERATIONS

1) How do you decide what spells belong on a witch's spell list? Traditionally in D&D there's a divide between healers (bards, clerics, druids) and blasters (sorcerers, warlocks, wizards). It does get to be a little fuzzy, but you need to figure out (a) will your class follow that tradition, or (b) will your class break that tradition (and if so how will you balance it).

 

[Slit518]

Quickleaf, look at the chart that details what a Witch will get from levels 1-20. You will see a Witch is introduced into a Coven, and at later levels gets Coven Powers. A Coven is just NOT bonus spells, I just show the bonus spells. It's a preview after all, not a, "Hey, here's the whole thing."

I appreciate you giving it a look and giving me feedback.

 

[Dausuul]

I'm with Quickleaf on pretty much every point.

As for the stuff you didn't show us: If we can't see it, we can't incorporate it into our critique. Basically, your preview goes from levels 1-6, and levels 1-6 have serious problems. Rather than trying to paper over those problems by showering goodies from level 7 onward, it's better to address those issues directly.

(And if you're planning this for publication, and the preview is a teaser to attract interest... man, you really need to fix levels 1-6. Potential customers are going to assess your work on the quality of what you show them. They will, quite reasonably, assume that whatever you don't show them is of similar quality to what you do.)

 

[Guest 6801328]

Conceptually I like the drawback idea but I'd tone them down a lot. I.e., instead of "you can't be brought back to life" you might die after failing only two Death Saves instead of three. Yeah, yeah, I know you said "major sacrifice" but, as Quickleaf pointed out, D&D 5e characters just don't have these kinds of major flaws.

The one I thought of is "Repulsive: you suffer Disadvantage on all Charisma ability checks." (Which in a way conflicts the next thing I was going to say, which is that I think Witches should be yet-another-Charisma-class, instead of Intelligence.)

Then you need to tie each sacrifice to an ability that you gain.

I don't really like Origin of Powers. Or, at least, the origins you chose. They are too epic and grand for witches, at least my perception of them.

Overall, although I've long been wanting a Witch class, this doesn't really scratch my itch. Other than some fluff differences I don't really see how this is different from existing casters. Sure, "Origin of Powers" sounds unique, but what does it actually DO? You just get some new spells and a spell-like ability.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I'm not sure that I'm reading this right.

I can't find where it states what ability witches use for spellcasting. How to calculate spell DCs, numbers of spells prepared, basic stuff like that.

The spell system could probably do with some clearing up: from my initial reading it looked like the witch gets full spellcasting plus autoscaling short rest based slots as a warlock does.

Quickleaf's points about the thematics also make sense: as it stands the write-up looks more like an amalgamation of several existing classes rather than a new and unique one.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I thought more about the "Sacrifice" thing. I'm not really seeing what this has to do with witches, unless you're basing it off some witch archetype that I'm not familiar with. I mean, it's kind of a nifty idea, it just doesn't say "witch" to me. More Warlock, really.

 

[Quickleaf]

Conceptually I like the drawback idea but I'd tone them down a lot. I.e., instead of "you can't be brought back to life" you might die after failing only two Death Saves instead of three. Yeah, yeah, I know you said "major sacrifice" but, as Quickleaf pointed out, D&D 5e characters just don't have these kinds of major flaws.

The one I thought of is "Repulsive: you suffer Disadvantage on all Charisma ability checks." (Which in a way conflicts the next thing I was going to say, which is that I think Witches should be yet-another-Charisma-class, instead of Intelligence.)

Then you need to tie each sacrifice to an ability that you gain.

I don't really like Origin of Powers. Or, at least, the origins you chose. They are too epic and grand for witches, at least my perception of them.

Overall, although I've long been wanting a Witch class, this doesn't really scratch my itch. Other than some fluff differences I don't really see how this is different from existing casters. Sure, "Origin of Powers" sounds unique, but what does it actually DO? You just get some new spells and a spell-like ability.

I'm the same. I think there's a lot of potential for an interesting Witch class – for example, I think Brian's take is pretty good, if a bit complex – but this doesn't feel like a "witch" to me.

While I don't believe in designing *only* to fill in gaps (i.e. we need another Intelligence-based spellcaster, instead of the many Wisdom- or Charisma-based casters), the way I think of a "witch" actually is more Intelligence-based than anything else. It's about knowing the correct rituals to Draw Down the Moon, knowing the secret paths through the Forest of Long Night, knowing the signs and seals of the Witch Queens, etc. While it's not the same kind of knowledge as a wizard – I imagine a "witch" being more about family secrets passed down through hedge traditions – it's still a form of knowing.

 

[Stalker0]

I will echo the notes on the sacrifice. I think you leave this one nebulous and personal to the player. And its a great hook....what did the player give up, a memory of a former lover, killed their brother, their own truename....etc etc.

But it doesn't need mechanics. It just a really cool plot point that some people will barely touch, and some people will write you a 20 page backstory on.


Right now there is not a good defining spell caster theme. You have a little bit of warlock spell casting mixed with regular casting...but nothing to unify it. The coven idea seems the neatest idea, but it needs mechanics to explain how the witch's spell casting is distinct from the other various classes.

 

[Slit518]

Alright, so what I am taking from the feedback is focus on the Coven mechanic, it has potential. But make sure it's unique and stands out while making it interesting.

Change the sacrifice mechanic, either make it something without draw back or less draw back.

Let us look at all the main spell casters and see how they handle their spells:

Warlock - spell slots that recharge on a short rest and up-scaled to a max of 5th level spells, with also at-will Invocations and a 1/day 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th level spells at the correct levels.

Wizard - writes spells into a book, memorizes which ones they want to use ahead of time.

Bard/Sorcerer - knows a certain number of spells, casts them from their slots.

Cleric/Druid - have the option of choosing all spells from spell list ahead of time.

I tried to do a unique thing by mixing the Warlock option with the Bard/Sorcerer option. Giving them spell slots which can be used for their Origin/Coven spells, spells gifted to them. And using regular spell slots for the spells they learn on their own. Though both are limited (not to the max of either type), there is a lot of casting flexibility. That is also why I added a sacrifice for the Witch, just so her power wouldn't seem out of control.

One thing I will remove are the extra drawbacks on the Deafened sacrifice. It makes no sense for somebody who could hear their whole life not to be able to speak correctly causing their words to malfunction later after being deaf. They already know what the words feel like.

I may add a couple more, less "harsh" sacrifices the Witch can use for power, such as "Loveless," never able to find love, and "Aged," where the Witch is aged to a venerable age. So that way a player can choose what Sacrifice is appropriate for their power.

I feel most witches are under the "Soulless" sacrifice, giving up their soul for power. It has no cosmetic or mechanical effect aside from not being able to be resurrected. But that makes sense because you have given your soul to a higher power. And like I said, at 9th level the Witch receives an ability that helps them with their Sacrifice.

For example, the paralyzed Witch can Levitate once she hits 9th level. She has an hour usage of it and can spread it out any way she wishes throughout the day. She regains all spent usage of it at the end of a Long Rest. She also doesn't need to Concentrate on this Levitation, as it's an ability granted to her from the higher power for being a good servant.

Quickleaf, I agree with you on why the Witch is an Intelligence based caster. Those were my thoughts as I chose to set-it-up. Though, I could understand a Charisma based caster for the Witch as well, but I feel D&D has too many Charisma based casters.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Another way of thinking about the Sacrifice is to make it an ability: you invoke your sacrifice and pay some (temporary) penalty in exchange for a (temporary) benefit. Maybe until the next short/long rest?

And an idea for you about covens/sources of power/subclasses: if the Coven is the sub-class, each Coven could be "family" (in the metaphorical sense) of a specific entity. Sort of an arch-Witch. E.g. Queen of the Night, Queen of Frost, the Matron, etc. (They wouldn't all have to be female or queens...that's just where my brain goes with Witches.)

 

[Quickleaf]

Alright, so what I am taking from the feedback is focus on the Coven mechanic, it has potential. But make sure it's unique and stands out while making it interesting.

Change the sacrifice mechanic, either make it something without draw back or less draw back.

Let us look at all the main spell casters and see how they handle their spells:

Warlock - spell slots that recharge on a short rest and up-scaled to a max of 5th level spells, with also at-will Invocations and a 1/day 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th level spells at the correct levels.

Wizard - writes spells into a book, memorizes which ones they want to use ahead of time.

Bard/Sorcerer - knows a certain number of spells, casts them from their slots.

Cleric/Druid - have the option of choosing all spells from spell list ahead of time.

I tried to do a unique thing by mixing the Warlock option with the Bard/Sorcerer option. Giving them spell slots which can be used for their Origin/Coven spells, spells gifted to them. And using regular spell slots for the spells they learn on their own. Though both are limited (not to the max of either type), there is a lot of casting flexibility. That is also why I added a sacrifice for the Witch, just so her power wouldn't seem out of control.

One thing I will remove are the extra drawbacks on the Deafened sacrifice. It makes no sense for somebody who could hear their whole life not to be able to speak correctly causing their words to malfunction later after being deaf. They already know what the words feel like.

I may add a couple more, less "harsh" sacrifices the Witch can use for power, such as "Loveless," never able to find love, and "Aged," where the Witch is aged to a venerable age. So that way a player can choose what Sacrifice is appropriate for their power.

I feel most witches are under the "Soulless" sacrifice, giving up their soul for power. It has no cosmetic or mechanical effect aside from not being able to be resurrected. But that makes sense because you have given your soul to a higher power. And like I said, at 9th level the Witch receives an ability that helps them with their Sacrifice.

For example, the paralyzed Witch can Levitate once she hits 9th level. She has an hour usage of it and can spread it out any way she wishes throughout the day. She regains all spent usage of it at the end of a Long Rest. She also doesn't need to Concentrate on this Levitation, as it's an ability granted to her from the higher power for being a good servant.

Quickleaf, I agree with you on why the Witch is an Intelligence based caster. Those were my thoughts as I chose to set-it-up. Though, I could understand a Charisma based caster for the Witch as well, but I feel D&D has too many Charisma based casters.

I get that it's fun to tinker with mechanics. Hey, I enjoy it too.

But you need a clear identity of what a witch *is*. And you need to articulate that here if you're hoping for any kind of meaningful feedback.

You cannot design a class starting from the mechanics. It does not work. You need to have some kind of story/narrative. That's what you hang your design upon.

You seem to have an idea in your head of what a witch is – for example, you say: I feel most witches are under the "Soulless" sacrifice, giving up their soul for power – but you haven't come out and clearly articulated what a witch's identity is. You're being exceedingly opaque. You need to communicate what a witch is to you. Don't assume we "just know." OK, why do you think that witches gain magic by selling their souls? What literary/film/historical sources are you drawing upon for that definition? And how is it different from a warlock?

 

[DeanP]

I've been thinking about your post and thread. I began by pondering the existing main spellcasting classes. The wizard draws his magical ability through rigorous study. The sorcerer is born with magic in the blood. The cleric draws power from her faith, the warlock makes a pact with something else. The druid draws her power from nature or maybe nature gods. So, where does the witch draw her power? Is it arcane? or is it divine magic? I'd abandon the idea of pacts; that's the territory of the warlock. If you suggesting its through sacrifice, that sounds like blood magic, and somebody produced a supplement on that, and that uses HD as a source of the mechanic. I pondered two sources that might help give form to the class. The celestial bodies or through ley energy within the earth; both which led me to think about how the witch channels these energies? Naturally some tropes came to mind; through ritual, through tattoos, through crystals and poultices. I think this suggests the witch is some sort of channeler of the magic woven into the prime material plane. Maybe other types of witches draw their powers from either the shadowfell or the feywild, but rather than receiving their power through an entity, channel the essence of magic from those planes.

Maybe there's some sort of effect that people do not like because of the channeled energy? A roleplaying effect rather than a mechanical effect? And these effects make people distrust witches or fear them; giving witches the type of mystique you're looking for?

 

[Slit518]

I've been thinking about your post and thread. I began by pondering the existing main spellcasting classes. The wizard draws his magical ability through rigorous study. The sorcerer is born with magic in the blood. The cleric draws power from her faith, the warlock makes a pact with something else. The druid draws her power from nature or maybe nature gods. So, where does the witch draw her power? Is it arcane? or is it divine magic? I'd abandon the idea of pacts; that's the territory of the warlock. If you suggesting its through sacrifice, that sounds like blood magic, and somebody produced a supplement on that, and that uses HD as a source of the mechanic. I pondered two sources that might help give form to the class. The celestial bodies or through ley energy within the earth; both which led me to think about how the witch channels these energies? Naturally some tropes came to mind; through ritual, through tattoos, through crystals and poultices. I think this suggests the witch is some sort of channeler of the magic woven into the prime material plane. Maybe other types of witches draw their powers from either the shadowfell or the feywild, but rather than receiving their power through an entity, channel the essence of magic from those planes.

Maybe there's some sort of effect that people do not like because of the channeled energy? A roleplaying effect rather than a mechanical effect? And these effects make people distrust witches or fear them; giving witches the type of mystique you're looking for?

That does sound interesting.

But I mean a Cleric and Druid basically draw their magic from similar sources, right? Gods of some sort? The old versus the new?

So wouldn't Warlock and Witch be similar?

And it was Matthew Mercer who created a Blood Magic supplement on the DM's Guild. First time I saw a Blood Mage was in Dragon Age (not saying they didn't exist before then, it was just my first experience with one).

I feel like if:
Cleric <--> Druid
then
Warlock <--> Witch

I also wanted to the Witch to be more universal and not setting tied. Shadowfell? Feywild? It's possible, it's a neat idea, but does it seem as universal? Like if I had my own homebrew and those don't exist, surely I could change their names to something similar? But wouldn't Heavens/Hells/Oceans/Cosmos be a more broader sense that could fit into any homebrew? All they have to do is change the name to fit their custom setting.

I appreciate the feedback. It definitely gave me somethings to think about.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

But I mean a Cleric and Druid basically draw their magic from similar sources, right? Gods of some sort? The old versus the new?

So wouldn't Warlock and Witch be similar?

Sure, I guess, but that's kind of the problem. The Druid is already a class which shouldn't exist, under the 5E class structure.

The only reason that the Druid class exists is because, back in the AD&D times, the Priest class was an extremely specific thing which definitely only worshipped a vaguely-pseudo-Christian god of Sun and Light. The Druid was introduced as a variant of that, which worshipped plants and nature stuff instead, so it had some different spells and could change into animals instead of turning undead. If AD&D had been written with the 5E class/subclass structure in mind, then Druid would be the name of the nature domain subclass under Cleric.

If the Cleric was still its own very specific thing, such that the Druid deserved its own class, then you could make a strong case for the Witch being separate from the Warlock. Maybe the Warlock only makes a pact with a fiend, so you could have a Witch class that only makes a pact with a fey, and that would be fine. As it stands, it's hard to see what the Witch is supposed to be doing, such that the Warlock would be insufficient.

 

[Slit518]

Sure, I guess, but that's kind of the problem. The Druid is already a class which shouldn't exist, under the 5E class structure.

The only reason that the Druid class exists is because, back in the AD&D times, the Priest class was an extremely specific thing which definitely only worshipped a vaguely-pseudo-Christian god of Sun and Light. The Druid was introduced as a variant of that, which worshipped plants and nature stuff instead, so it had some different spells and could change into animals instead of turning undead. If AD&D had been written with the 5E class/subclass structure in mind, then Druid would be the name of the nature domain subclass under Cleric.

If the Cleric was still its own very specific thing, such that the Druid deserved its own class, then you could make a strong case for the Witch being separate from the Warlock. Maybe the Warlock only makes a pact with a fiend, so you could have a Witch class that only makes a pact with a fey, and that would be fine. As it stands, it's hard to see what the Witch is supposed to be doing, such that the Warlock would be insufficient.

Oh yeah, there are many good rolls other casting classes can fill to fit the idea of a Witch.