Psions vs Sorcerers?

[Eldorian]

Can anyone who is experianced with both sorcerers and psions in normal play (not munchkin rule bending, but average game play) give me some advice on where each one is better than the other? I've never ran a game, or played in one, where psions were allowed, but i'm thinking of adding them to my game.

Eldorian Antar

 

[Berk]

I've never played a sor but have been in groups with sors in them. I have played a psion. Personally I feel the psion gets shafted on power selections, it's even more limited then a sors spell selection and the psion can activate about as many powers per day as a sor can. Do the math it works out to roughly the same amount of powers per level a day that a sor gets castable per day.

Also, psions need good ability scores in all attributes. They just can't learn most higher level powers without having high ability scores in all attributes since you need 10+level in an attribute to learn that power. Example, say you wanted to learn a psychometabalism power of 6th level, you would need a 16str or con, forget which ability score psychometabalism uses.

Thirdly, this is the same rant as the first one, not enough powers per level!!!

Other then that the rest of the psion class is sweet.

Now psychic warrior, that's a different story, 50/50 isn't bad for a handbook supplement.

 

[Eldorian]

I thourghly dislike the psychic warrior. I feel the class should not exist. It should be removed and replaced with psion/fighter multiclasses. I mean, isn't that the point of multiclassing?

As for powers known, they only have a couple less than a sorcerer, which maybe too much of a trade off for the ability to cast any power they know. The problem I thought I saw was that since most of the powers don't substancially scale up with level, and the fact that psions need good stats in many abilities, that psion powers would be substantially weaker than sorcerer spells. Is this not the case? Is it simply a lack of number of powers known?

thanks for the feedback

Eldorian Antar

 

[Geoff Watson]

Psions get some interesting powers, unusual feats, and better skills than a sorceror.

Sorcerors get about three times as many spells per day, and their spells scale, so low level combat powers remain useful (compare Lesser Concusion to Magic Missile, or Whitefire to Fireball: the spells increase in damage as the sorceror gains levels, while the powers rapidly become useless.)

Psions can be good if you want something different, but are generally less powerful.
If you use the optional rules in If Thoughts Could Kill, or the Mind's Eye (WotC website), they aren't so weak. (Using both is probably too much of a power increase.)

Geoff.

 

[Oni]

On the other hand some of the psion powers are just nutty, like being able to permanently switch bodies with someone (which can also negate a lot of those stat woes).

 

[Darklone]

Psions are not weak. They get more skillpoints than sorcerers, can wear full armour (with proficiencies) and have a whole load of nice feats to choose from (this rocks in groups with no splatbooks).

Just two powers at lvl1 from the strength domain and your cleric becomes obsolete in matters of between combats healing.

Ever tried to keep a psion from manifesting powers? Knock him unconscious. Binding, blindfolding and gagging won't help. Silence spells to counter him? Forget it.

A psion at higher levels is a powerhorse concerning low level powers but has to choose wisely which high level powers to use. We had a psion who was able to provide the whole group with spiderclimb and other utility spells, the sorcerer would have lost his fireball slots for that

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Psions run into different problems, depending on level.

At low level your character is weak. Your defensive powers are rarely as good as a sorcerer's defensive spells, and your offensive powers (especially direct damage) are weak.

Consider: your Ectoplasmic Cocoon power (2nd-level) is better in every way than Hold Person, but it's worse than Web. There is no psionic web. Many disciplines don't have any good 2nd-level powers, and some disciplines are much weaker than others.

At high level your character is weak. You can now use the better powers in your disciplines. For instance, a savant could give up on direct damage and just use Disintegrate, or you could use the Mind's Eye (in my sig) and try to twink it. You could do 26d6 damage with True Concussion at 16th-level, but you need a Torc of Psionic Might and the Empowered Psicrystal (Discipline Focus) feat as well as Fortify Power and Overpower to do it, and you can still only hurt one person with that power.

The problem is Multiple Ability Dependency. If that psion doesn't have True Seeing for instance (requires Wisdom 15), then they're in trouble. Then again, they're in trouble if they don't have Greater Energy Barrier (requires Strength 17, in the Mind's Eye). In fact, unless you have a 19 in five of your ability scores (I wish I was kidding) then your psion is severely underpowered.

Or picture an egoist (the warrior with d4 hp/level) without Ablating or Metaphysical Body (Met Body is basically Magic Fang). Your character needs an Intelligence score of 15 simply to function.

(Using both is probably too much of a power increase.)

I disagree, but it does mean some house ruling.

For instance, Mindscapes (aka ITCK 2) has a prestige class called the Lucid Cenobite, a psi-monk. In order to be effective, you have to use the Metaphysical Body chain powers from the Mind's Eye.0

Do the math it works out to roughly the same amount of powers per level a day that a sor gets castable per day.

It's been done, many times. A sorcerer gets 400+ power point equivalents at 20th-level versus the psion's 183, and the sorcerer gets more from a high key ability score than a psion.

Addendum: psions have some broken combos available to them, just like any other class. If you want details about broken combos (preferably to remove them from your game), please ask.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Played both.

Both have big advantages and disadvantages. Personally, Psion ended up being more my style, but YMMV.

Here's the differences I can see. The best way to express it is to use Sorcerer as baseline and then talk about the Psion.

PLUSSES:
> 2 extra skill points per level goes a long way
> The ability to pick which stat you want to depend on, instead of being stuck with CHA. Shapers (INT) are great, and not just because you get even more skill points.
> Access to Psionic Feats, like Inertial Armor or Speed of Thought
> No extra casting time for metamagicked spells
> More flexibility in casting, of course. It's the reason you took the class in the first place.
> Some good divinations and utility spells are at a lower level than for Sorcerers (and many aren't available for Sorcerers at all, being based on divine spells)
> No material components. "Identify" becomes MUCH better without all them pearls. Or, Mass Cocoon (the psionic Forcecage) without the 1500gp component? Very, very scary. Besides, not carrying bat guano makes the whole camp smell better.
> No verbal/somatic components. Being Held or Silenced doesn't stop you from using your powers. It also means you can cast in armor with no problems, assuming you find a way to get an armor proficiency.
> Psionic attack modes can be useful for stunning people
> Free Talents. They may be mostly useless, but there's a lot of them. If you use the Mind's Eye stuff, there are many better ones there, as well as Feats that let you use them for other things.

MINUSES:
> The damage powers aren't good. First, they don't scale with level. Second, most are single-target. Third, they're weak to begin with.
For example, comparing Whitefire to Fireball: same level, range, area... the only difference is damage (5d4 vs Cd6 means the Fireball does 3 times as much damage at level 10)
Now, some have other useful abilities (Concussion spells dealing subdual damage), but overall? Meh.
> You need to keep several stats high. By the time you're casting 5th-level powers, you've effectively specialized down to one or two disciplines. It gets even worse once you get higher. (Note: using the "secondary disciplines" rules from outside sources stops this)
Under a high-powered rolling system, no problem, but with point-buy this is really hard.
> For some ridiculous reason, Craft and Profession aren't class skills for all types, unlike practically every other core class.
> Save DC: 1d20+stat instead of 10+. Randomness tends to hurt more than help. Yet another reason not to use offensive spells allowing a saving throw. While it allows you to get insane DCs on a good day, a bad day can kill you.
> Sorcerers can just cast lots more spells. They can afford to throw spells all the time; Psions have the spells/day below a generalist Wizard, even if you count the extra Talents. Now, granted, at the end of the day my Sorcerer would often have certain spell levels full of unused slots (2nd) while others (3rd) ran dry quickly.
> Many good arcane spells just aren't available for Psions, like Polymorph Other. In other cases, the psionic version is weaker.
> Psionic displays are much harder to hide than the verbal/somatic components of arcane spells. You just accept after a while that everyone will know when you cast something.
> Psionic combat tends to hurt you more than help if the DM throws psionic enemies at you.
> Psicrystals aren't as much fun as familiars. Which would you rather have: a ferret, or a gem that sits in your pocket?

There's more, like an ongoing debate about whether Astral Constructs are superior to the Summon Monster spells. Also, it depends on how integrated your DM makes Psionics and Magic; for example, can Use Magic Device allow you to wear a psionic tattoo? Do the item crafting Psionic Feats allow you to make DMG items if psionics has a similar power?

I think the rest of these guys have covered the basics. They're both fun classes, although the Sorcerer needs a bit of alteration to stay "fun". If you like the raw Fireball-throwin' damage dealer, you have to go Sorcerer. Psionics are great for more subtle characters.

Oh, and the purely metagaming answer:
> Psionics isn't core, so it's harder to get the DM to approve any new material you need. While the other classes are getting spells and PrCs from official WotC splatbooks, you're looking at the Mind's Eye, If Thoughts Could Kill, etc.

 

[hammymchamham]

My experience with Sorcerers is non-existance, seen them played, never have played them.

I have a dwarf psion, and have played on session with him. He's a savant, and 12th level. Its nice having a d4 hit die and having more hit points than the rest of the group (minus one of the charecters) even though the rest of the group is 13th level.

As I view the Sorcerer vs. Wizard, i see the Wizard as the staple of the DnD view of Magic (it has been around since 1st Ed right?), and the Sorcerer is relatively new. It seems to me the Sorcerer was introduced to have a sort of "Mana" system. Because of this, the Psion just fits my idea of how a Mana system works. I also like the idea of having the d20 roll to determne DCs... of course its embarrising when you roll a 20 and the enemy makes its save.

 

[Henry]

I have played a Moon Elven Nomad (DEX-based Psion) in a campaign before, all the way to 6th level. For the last three levels, we used the If Thoughts Could Kill variant. However, for the first three levels...

I had some very useful features. First of all, the detect psionics and the Burst talents were supremely useful. I could move 10 feet extra when someone wasn't expecting me too, and it helped tremendously to escape melee combat when needed. My main assist was with a bow, and with enchanting my compatriots weapons.

One thing to look at with metaphysical weapon - its duration is one hour per level, not one minute per level as its counterpart. Furthermore, the Skate power is superbly useful if you want to be somewhere you shouldn't, and if you want to be a mobile archer. In our very first adventure, the skate power actually helped us. The party had to close a mine shaft to stop the escape of a released evil thing. The DM was expecting one of us to sacrifice ourselves to be in the shaft and knock the critical support beam, sealing the hero inside. Our solution? We took a 400 pound rock, greased it up with the skate spell, and sent it flying. Our fighter made a pretty good "to hit" roll, and the rest fell into place.

Astral construct is a supremely useful spell, since you can create any type of creature you want. Need a servitor to kill your guard, and take their keys and unchain you? Need a flying servitor to cross the chasm and tie up the rope to the rope to the opposite side? Astral construct can do it all, baby - AND, you communicate with the creature by thought, not by speech.

The secret to playing a psion is similar to that of a bard, at low levels: serve as support staff to the other PC's. After you gain a few levels (get about 6th level), your role will shift more into loner, as you actually start to resemble a cleric more. You can heal wounds and ability damage, you can dispel enemy magics, you can fight offensively, and you can call up help as needed.

but to play them as a front-line artillery sorcerer type is one thing you simply cannot do.