Q: Templates, ECL, and HD

[Nastermil]

I started a new game recently and allowed players to begin at 7th level. Naturally, many of the players tried to make the most whacked-out characters possible, so I encountered rule dilemmas beyond what I was familiar with.

1). A player wanted to add the half-dragon template to her character. After much digging, I found a Dragon Magazine article that listed a half-dragon at +4 ECL. Ok, fine, but how many Hit Dice do half-dragons start with?

1b). Naturally, this player also wanted to be half drow (+2ECL), and for a class -- yep, you guessed it... a Psion. ('How can I make my DM's hair gray?' she thought as she thumbed through a stack of D&D books). After tallying up all the bonuses and penalties, she had quite a strong character. Her Ability stats were the highest in the party. But what are her hit points? 1d4 + Con Bonus? Does that balance with everyone else, who average between 30-50? Her AC wasn't remarkable, so basically any beastie that can hurt the others would kill her in 1 hit.

1c). How about her saving throws? As a 1st level psion? Or does she gain anything from her drow/dragon heritage? How is this determined for other templates?

2). Another player wanted to add the Shade template to her character (from the Forgotten Realms book) but I didn't have my Dragon Magazine handy, and I still can't find it. What is the ECL for a Shade? How can I figure this stuff out on my own, so I don't have to lug a stack of books and magazines around with me everywhere I go?

3). I'm glad my players are imaginative and all, but they have created a band of FREAKS!!! I don't want all the NPCs they meet to react in the same predictable way, but I don't think many people could look at them in a friendly, helpful light. (A drow/dragon psion, a shade psionic warrior, a drow/tiefling cleric of life and death, a freakish but cute cat girl/weretiger bard, and a... a thing known as the Arbiter that... well, it would take way too long to explain) so if anyone has any recommendations on good source material for NPC reactions beyond the table in the DMG, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

After tallying up all the bonuses and penalties, she had quite a strong character. Her Ability stats were the highest in the party. But what are her hit points? 1d4 + Con Bonus? How about her saving throws? As a 1st level psion?

That's right.

As you can see, maxing out your ECL is a Bad Idea.

She's treated as a 7th level character, but if you look at her CR, it's about 3 or 4. She's very, very vulnerable to the sorts of things that most 7th level PCs sneer at.

3). I'm glad my players are imaginative and all, but they have created a band of FREAKS!!! I don't want all the NPCs they meet to react in the same predictable way, but I don't think many people could look at them in a friendly, helpful light. If anyone has any recommendations on good source material for NPC reactions beyond the table in the DMG, I'd appreciate it.

I'd take a look at the Masters of the Universe movie, with Dolph Lundgren as He-Man, and see how common people react when confronted with monsters strolling around town.

Hysterics, police, shotguns...

-Hyp.

 

[Knight Otu]

Ok, fine, but how many Hit Dice do half-dragons start with?

Only those of the base creature. Also note that the official stance on the half-dragon template seems to be that only racial HD are improved by one step, and not class HD.

1c). How about her saving throws? As a 1st level psion? Or does she gain anything from her drow/dragon heritage? How is this determined for other templates?

Normal saves unless otherwise noted. The characters good stats offset this somewhat. No template improves saves unless otherwise noted, or the template adds hit dice.

2). Another player wanted to add the Shade template to her character (from the Forgotten Realms book) but I didn't have my Dragon Magazine handy, and I still can't find it. What is the ECL for a Shade? How can I figure this stuff out on my own, so I don't have to lug a stack of books and magazines around with me everywhere I go?

The official ECL, IIRC, is 5, and the character has to be 5th level minimum. This info should be in the FRCS errata.
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[Nastermil]

I just want to make sure I am understanding this: (and please bear with me -- I've played 2e since the first book came out and it's hard adjusting to a game without arbitrary, made-up, 'just cuz' rules... I think I'm actually making things harder than they really are...)

1) In order to become a Shade, must one first attain 5th level in a class, and then add the shade template (+5ECL) to the character, ultimately making it a 10th level character (similar to how a character can't just be a lich at 1st level)? Or,

2) A character can be a Shade from the start, with 5 levels in Shade and 1 in whatever class (meaning others create 6th level characters in order to balance the game? Or,

3) Can a character begin as a Shade with no other class and begin the game as a 5th level character?

 

[Pax]

I just want to make sure I am understanding this: (and please bear with me -- I've played 2e since the first book came out and it's hard adjusting to a game without arbitrary, made-up, 'just cuz' rules... I think I'm actually making things harder than they really are...)

1) In order to become a Shade, must one first attain 5th level in a class, and then add the shade template (+5ECL) to the character, ultimately making it a 10th level character (similar to how a character can't just be a lich at 1st level)? Or,

2) A character can be a Shade from the start, with 5 levels in Shade and 1 in whatever class (meaning others create 6th level characters in order to balance the game? Or,

3) Can a character begin as a Shade with no other class and begin the game as a 5th level character?

None of these. To be a Shade at all, your total level -- class + ECL adjustment -- must be 10 or higher.

Shades have a Level Adjustment of +5; Shade characetrs must ALSO have 5 CLASS levels; thus, in a 7th level game, NOONE can be a Shade of any sort.

IOW -- Shades have an ECL of +5 ... however many class levels you have, add 5, and that is your Effective Character Level. ON TOP of that, beginning Shades must have at LEAST five character lvels ... BEFORE adding the +5 for ECL.

 

[Nastermil]

Ah... Thanks.

But isn't that what I said in #1?

Wow. I knew those powers seemed pretty darn powerful.

But now I have another question. Lets say I'm a 7th level character, and something happens that allows me to add the Shate template. Now I'm effectively a 12th level character. Do I suddenly get the XP of a 12th level character, or do I have the XP of a 7th level character, and have to earn a heck of a lot more XP to reach 13th level? And what happens to the other 7th level characters in my group? Have I suddenly thrown the game out of balance? Probably. But then, if adding the template throws the game out of balance, then in what situation would adding such a powerful template actually work?

(I knew a person in high school who used to DM himself. He proudly let me know that he was a 300th level fighter and a 250th level wizard and he had a spiral notebook filled with all the magic items he found on his adventures, and then wanted to tell me all the cool things his character has done over the years, until I ran away screaming with my hands over my ears. I suppose in his game, adding the Shade template would be pretty easy. Actually it would probably make him weaker somehow. But other than this example...)

 

[magnas_veritas]

But now I have another question. Lets say I'm a 7th level character, and something happens that allows me to add the Shate template. Now I'm effectively a 12th level character. Do I suddenly get the XP of a 12th level character, or do I have the XP of a 7th level character, and have to earn a heck of a lot more XP to reach 13th level? And what happens to the other 7th level characters in my group? Have I suddenly thrown the game out of balance? Probably. But then, if adding the template throws the game out of balance, then in what situation would adding such a powerful template actually work?

You keep the XP you have, and don't level until you get the minimum XP for a 13th-level character. And, the fun part is that you'll go REAL SLOW since you're facing encounters that are appropriate for your party, but you're getting proportionately less due to your higher level.

Well, that's how we handled it. I don't recall an official stance on it. So, technically, it's a house rule.

Whether or not it's unbalancing is another thing. When it happened in my group, we already had a variety of levels, and the "lucky" PC suddenly equalled the highest-level PC in character level, and the "lucky" one (okay, me) suddenly knew his pain, as XP gain slowed to a crawl.

Brad

 

[Pax]

Ah... Thanks.

But isn't that what I said in #1?

Not precisely. Taken literally (which is IMO the only logical way to take written posts online ), your option #1 implied you start out as a non-shade, get to 5th level, and can then *poof* add the Shade template to your character.

Note that a character "adding" the Lich template does not pay for it in terms of ECL (Lich is +0 ECL in the MM), but rather, they pay in the form of 120,000gp and 5,000XP; if you are making a 15th level aprty, for example, the player of hte Lich will have a 14th-and-almost-15th-level character, who has 120,000gp "less" gear and equipment than the other party members ... reflecting the GP and XP costs of the phylactery.

Wow. I knew those powers seemed pretty darn powerful.

But now I have another question. Lets say I'm a 7th level character, and something happens that allows me to add the Shate template. Now I'm effectively a 12th level character. Do I suddenly get the XP of a 12th level character, or do I have the XP of a 7th level character, and have to earn a heck of a lot more XP to reach 13th level? And what happens to the other 7th level characters in my group? Have I suddenly thrown the game out of balance? Probably. But then, if adding the template throws the game out of balance, then in what situation would adding such a powerful template actually work?

You would not suddenly gain any XP. Frankly, as a GM, I'd be loathe to let anyone ADD a template like Shade, except as part of (prhaps) a tailored Prestige Class (like the Dragon Disciple) ... and "water down" the othe benefits of that class, so you have essentially paid the same general cost as the ECL of the template itself.

If you let one party member in a 7th level group gain a template without commensurate level-loss -- ANY template, not just the Shade template -- then yes, you have introduced intraparty imbalance to the game.

OTOH, having an identical template be applied to EVERY player character at roughly the same point in the campaign, would preserve intraparty balance (not that such an event should be common, or in fact other than vanishingly rare).

 

[Nastermil]

Could somebody tell me where the Shade +5 ECL is found? I looked through the Forgotten Realms book, but it says +2 ECL, which was how we originally made the character. The person playing the Shade, naturally, wants to know where to find the +5 ECL and I don't know what to say. She's really cool and will modify the character if need be, but right now all I can say is, "Well, these guys on-line said..."

Thanks.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The book does state the shade template as +2, but it has been changed to +5 in the errata, which is official rules. You can download that at wizards.com

And yes, your half-dragon/drow has only a handful of HP, and will probably not survive the first remotely tough fight!

You keep the XP you have, and don't level until you get the minimum XP for a 13th-level character. And, the fun part is that you'll go REAL SLOW since you're facing encounters that are appropriate for your party, but you're getting proportionately less due to your higher level.

Well, that's how we handled it. I don't recall an official stance on it. So, technically, it's a house rule.

It's no house rule, it's an optional rule from the FRCS: You get your XP depending on your level. The DMG method is to average the character level of the party and award according to that (which is stupid, since it actually was harder for those lower-level guys, and also they will never be able to close in)



My tuppence on the subject: if they want to play such a party, fine. But they won't be much welcome in cities (they'll probably be hunted down all the time)

a drow/tiefling

How's that possible? Or do you mean half-fiend or fiendish drow? Or have you come up with a tailor-made tiefling race that's a cross between drow and demons (other than draegloth's)