Question About Dragonborn Channeling and Opinions on a Ruling Concerning a Ritual

[Raunalyn]

Ok, this is a two-part discussion.

Dragonborn Channeling allows a dragonborn to channel his breath weapon through is weapon, adding it on as extra dice. Does this damage maximize on a crit, or is it rolled (like for sneak attack damage). I ruled the latter (I know what the player is doing...we have a cleric in the party is follows the Oracle paragon path, which allows for a single crit for free as a daily power (I think), and he's hoping to get a maximum damage on his weapon and breath weapon). Opinions?

Secondly, I'm preparing to run the Against the Giants series (starting with the most excellent Steading of the Hill Giant Chief in the latest Dungeon). One of the players came up with a devious idea to exploit a particular ritual, Leomund's Secret Chest. His goal was to create two very large chests, placing one inside the other. The chests would be big enough for the party to fit in (uncomfortably). The ritualist could then cast Leomund's Secret Chest on the larger chest, placing one inside the other. The party would then load up the smaller chest with loot, climb inside the larger chest, then dismiss it. Then, they would cast the ritual to summon the smaller chest back to the safe house. Once they are done selling stuff and resting, they could dismiss the smaller box back to the dungeon, then cast the ritual to call back the larger box...rinse repeat.

Now, the wording for the ritual doesn't really say that this cannot be done, but it seems to me to be an obvious exploitation of the rules as written. Considering that one of the keys to making Steading of the Hill Giant Chief challenging is the careful management of resources as well as the danger of the Steading repopulating slightly while the party withdraws to heal and rest, I felt that this exploitation would interfere with the balance. So, I ruled that the ritualist would need to remain outside of the boxes to dismiss them, which means that someone would need to stay behind. Is this ruling too harsh, or do you think its appropriate? Is there an official ruling from WoTC that clarifies Leomund's Secret Chest?

 

[Ryujin]

Ok, this is a two-part discussion.

Dragonborn Channeling allows a dragonborn to channel his breath weapon through is weapon, adding it on as extra dice. Does this damage maximize on a crit, or is it rolled (like for sneak attack damage). I ruled the latter (I know what the player is doing...we have a cleric in the party is follows the Oracle paragon path, which allows for a single crit for free as a daily power (I think), and he's hoping to get a maximum damage on his weapon and breath weapon). Opinions?

Any damage that would normally be rolled, is maximized on a critical hit. So yes, it would be maximized.

Secondly, I'm preparing to run the Against the Giants series (starting with the most excellent Steading of the Hill Giant Chief in the latest Dungeon). One of the players came up with a devious idea to exploit a particular ritual, Leomund's Secret Chest. His goal was to create two very large chests, placing one inside the other. The chests would be big enough for the party to fit in (uncomfortably). The ritualist could then cast Leomund's Secret Chest on the larger chest, placing one inside the other. The party would then load up the smaller chest with loot, climb inside the larger chest, then dismiss it. Then, they would cast the ritual to summon the smaller chest back to the safe house. Once they are done selling stuff and resting, they could dismiss the smaller box back to the dungeon, then cast the ritual to call back the larger box...rinse repeat.

Now, the wording for the ritual doesn't really say that this cannot be done, but it seems to me to be an obvious exploitation of the rules as written. Considering that one of the keys to making Steading of the Hill Giant Chief challenging is the careful management of resources as well as the danger of the Steading repopulating slightly while the party withdraws to heal and rest, I felt that this exploitation would interfere with the balance. So, I ruled that the ritualist would need to remain outside of the boxes to dismiss them, which means that someone would need to stay behind. Is this ruling too harsh, or do you think its appropriate? Is there an official ruling from WoTC that clarifies Leomund's Secret Chest?

Definite "bag o' rats" exception. It twists the ritual in ways that are unintended. I would say that your ruling is on the 'too lenient' side. In my case I would first rule that the chest, used in the ritual, is the size that the teleportation power of the ritual can handle; a 'regular' chest. That's a wooden chest that weighs 25 pounds, empty. That's not very big.

You could say that summoning or dismissing can only effect one chest, at a time, meaning that the smaller chest gets left behind if the larger chest is dismissed, even if it's inside the larger one at the time.

Or, as implies in the ritual's text, you could say that an archanist could only have one chest attuned to him at a time. "As part of mastering this ritual, you must create or commission a chest that bears arcane designs, and an object with personal meaning for you must be built into the chest’s frame. After the chest is ready, you can store it anywhere you like."

This isn't a level 20 Succur ritual, that can move the entire party. It's a level 6 ritual, that can move some food and weapons.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Ok, this is a two-part discussion.

Dragonborn Channeling allows a dragonborn to channel his breath weapon through is weapon, adding it on as extra dice. Does this damage maximize on a crit, or is it rolled (like for sneak attack damage). I ruled the latter (I know what the player is doing...we have a cleric in the party is follows the Oracle paragon path, which allows for a single crit for free as a daily power (I think), and he's hoping to get a maximum damage on his weapon and breath weapon). Opinions?

Agree with Ryujin here. In fact SA damage also gets maximized for the same reason. Not sure where anyone got the idea it didn't...

Secondly, I'm preparing to run the Against the Giants series (starting with the most excellent Steading of the Hill Giant Chief in the latest Dungeon). One of the players came up with a devious idea to exploit a particular ritual, Leomund's Secret Chest. His goal was to create two very large chests, placing one inside the other. The chests would be big enough for the party to fit in (uncomfortably). The ritualist could then cast Leomund's Secret Chest on the larger chest, placing one inside the other. The party would then load up the smaller chest with loot, climb inside the larger chest, then dismiss it. Then, they would cast the ritual to summon the smaller chest back to the safe house. Once they are done selling stuff and resting, they could dismiss the smaller box back to the dungeon, then cast the ritual to call back the larger box...rinse repeat.

Yeah, I don't really think I'd be inclined to let this sort of thing work, but its a matter of judgment. Nothing really says you either can or cannot travel inside the chest.

Now, the wording for the ritual doesn't really say that this cannot be done, but it seems to me to be an obvious exploitation of the rules as written. Considering that one of the keys to making Steading of the Hill Giant Chief challenging is the careful management of resources as well as the danger of the Steading repopulating slightly while the party withdraws to heal and rest, I felt that this exploitation would interfere with the balance. So, I ruled that the ritualist would need to remain outside of the boxes to dismiss them, which means that someone would need to stay behind. Is this ruling too harsh, or do you think its appropriate? Is there an official ruling from WoTC that clarifies Leomund's Secret Chest?

I doubt there's anything official, they rarely rule on rituals since they're generally pretty loosely worded. IMHO you're working it as it was intended. If the party wants a way to bug out they should probably invest in other less convenient options (teleport can get you out, but not in, there are a few other rituals that COULD get you in).

 

[On Puget Sound]

dragon breath, like sneak attack and any other damage involving dice (with one exception), is maximized on a crit. The only dice that are still rolled on a critical hit are the extra "critical" dice, typically 1dX per plus, granted by a magical weapon or implement.

And yeah, using a low level ritual to duplicate a pair of portal gates? Not in my game. If it could be done, everyone would have done it and more expensive teleport rituals would not have been invented. I might be more inclined to allow it for a party of pixies, though.

 

[Keenberg]

Ok, this is a two-part discussion.


Secondly, I'm preparing to run the Against the Giants series (starting with the most excellent Steading of the Hill Giant Chief in the latest Dungeon). One of the players came up with a devious idea to exploit a particular ritual, Leomund's Secret Chest. His goal was to create two very large chests, placing one inside the other. The chests would be big enough for the party to fit in (uncomfortably). The ritualist could then cast Leomund's Secret Chest on the larger chest, placing one inside the other. The party would then load up the smaller chest with loot, climb inside the larger chest, then dismiss it. Then, they would cast the ritual to summon the smaller chest back to the safe house. Once they are done selling stuff and resting, they could dismiss the smaller box back to the dungeon, then cast the ritual to call back the larger box...rinse repeat.

This is clearly an attempt to manipulate and break of the rules. In my game, I would give the player/pc a warning that it couldn't work, and that something could even go wrong. If they didnt heed the warning, and tried to do the stupid exploit anyway, I'd make them lose their gear, a limb, send them into a maddening dimension... or all three. I don't stand for that kind of BS.

This reminds me of a 3.5 game I played in as a character. One of tuw other players dig up some weird house rules for playing as a blinkdog so that he could travel ethereally at first level. The RM told him pretty clearly he didn't like the idea from the start, and then in the first session, we were faced with a non-combat encounter (a pack of Balrogs stormining the city.) The blinkdog wanted to go ethereal and spy on them, and the DM flat-out told him that it was not a good idea. He did it anyway, and his blinkdog was taken away by ethereal beasts to be tortured and killed horribly.

So, in summation, I am all for making the pcs and players suffer when they try to do the same to the DM by exploiting powers, rituals, rules, etc.

 

[Argyle King]

Seems I'm not the only person who has though of alternative ways to use Leomund's Secret Chest.

As a brand new 4E player (when I first learned the game,) I was attempting to do something similar. Though I also attempted to use it offensively by kicking enemies into the chest and then dismissing it. At the time, that seemed like a valid and logical way that someone in a world where that ritual existed would use it.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Now, see, I like that one. It isn't going to be easy, but I can see making that work, lol. I could see sneaking a small character into someplace via one as well. Actually you could do both with one chest. Still definitely 'gaming' it, but both clever and not stretching things too far.

 

[Unwise]

When players are trying to do something weird with rituals, it is important to remember that magic is a mix of art and science. It is not exact, there are lots of factors at play.

If someone wanted to do that, I would just let them make an arcana check. A successful check points out that nobody has done that before, probably for a good reason.

They can spend a few hours/days researching how the quantum mechanics might be affected during teleportation by the interference from the auras of living beings in the chest. Factoring in the Al'Kabor's Mana Transference Ratio combined with the Abyssal Interference Equation and then rerunning all the results for the particular Demi-Plane the chests came from and the planes they will pass through during the teleportation...

In my games, there is a reason spells are codified, tested, retested and finally written down in spellbooks. The guy running the Large Hadron Collider or a nuclear reactor don't just go, "Hey, let's tweak this on the fly and see what happens". They are free to do so, but the results are likely to vary a lot when used outside the proscribed manner. What is written in a spellbook may not even account for slight variations that come from being in another plane, too close to an Earth Node, near a Rift, the position of the moons or any other number of things. That is where the skill roll comes in. The more weird factors you add in, the more likely catastrophic failure becomes.

After explaining this, I just grin evilly. A decent arcana roll and they may well work out how to do stuff like that on the fly. The consequence of failing an experimental teleportation though could be quite severe. The good thing about running things this way is that people will do it if they are desperate and it can be used to reward interesting ideas.

Side note: In all of my games, all living things have auras that extend a little around them. These can be subconsciously turned down, but never off. These are disruptive to all magic that is not designed to work on them. So a dehydration spell that sucks all the water out of something will work on a pool, but not a living person. An ignite cantrip works on a campfire, but not somebody's backpack. A Stone to Flesh spell won't turn a golem into a quivering pile of meat. Putting a living person inside a Bag of Holding, will have a disruptive effect. So far I am yet to see a PC risk being put inside one, have someone put in with their loot, or risk breaking their bags. Who knows, maybe nothing would happen. A body can be put in a Bag of Holding safely, but only after a little time has passed for the aura to subside.

By adding in the idea of auras, it means that most innovative uses of rituals can be dealt with consistently. It also allows for inconsistent results of trying the same thing twice. This inconsistency is itself consistent with the concept.

 

[Ryujin]

Where that sort of thing is concerned I have a much more simple rule; reward the innovative and cool, but penalize the gamist.