Question on Climbing and Fatigue

[Water Bob]

So, I just got back home from today's game. During this session, I had a nifty chase that took the PCs cross country. They started in the woods at the base of a 80' sloping cliff, ran to the base, scaled the cliff, darted up the road, then chased the bad guys down a boulder strewn, scree covered slope.

The slope ended at a 60' cliff, where the lead bad guy jumped, 24 feet, catching himself on these vine-covered trees.

The chase terrain changed then to the limbs of these inter-connected trees. I call them thicket trees (just something I made up to put a neat "fantasy" edge on the game). These trees grow to between 60' and 120'. They have large, thick limbs that gravity pulls to the ground sometimes. The limbs are usually 2'-4' in diameter, making it easy for a person to move semi-quickly atop them.

The special quality of the Thicket Trees is that these huge limbs grow into each other. One tree's limbs grows into another making a lattice network. A grove can cover miles of area, allowing a character to never touch the ground.

The trees are usually covered with a parasitic, leafy vine. And, the vines can be used, Tarzan-style, to swing from one limb to the next. Or, there may be an easily-climbable covering of vines that is akin to climbing rope rigging on a sea ship.

Well, my players had their characters chase the bad guy into a grove of these trees. They kept trying to catch up with him, but I was rolling hot on the dice.

That's when one of my players brought up fatigue. I hadn't thought of that.

The rule says that if a character runs for a number of rounds equal to his CON score, then he has to make a DC 10 CON check. And, each round after that point, the check is required and goes up by 1 point each round.

Failure means the character is Fatigued.





Now, I understand the rule. It speaks to running three or four times base speed.

Because of terrain, I had the characters running a max of double speed.

One of my players argues that, since double speed is the max speed, it should be considered just like a max run--full out effort given. Therefore, the CON check for Fatigue should be made by all involved in the chase.

Secondly, the same player says that any climbing is strenuous and should count against the number of rounds, ticking down the CON check, too.



So, what do you think?

Does moving double speed, when twice speed is the maximum speed allowed because of terrain, the same as running 4 x Speed on normal terrain?

And....do you think that climbing for one round is the same as running all-out at 4 x Speed for one round?

Should the Fatigue rules be consulted in either of these cases?

 

[Water Bob]

A secondary, side-question, too: One of the bad guys was climbing the trees with a javelin quiver strapped across his back. Total equipment weight was next to nothing, but one of my players questioned the bad guy doing all the climbing and jumping around on the trees with quiver on his back (there's only one javelin in the quiver).

I think it's OK, and I don't think I'd penalize a PC for wearing the item.

Your thoughts?

 

[Vegepygmy]

One of my players argues that, since double speed is the max speed, it should be considered just like a max run--full out effort given. Therefore, the CON check for Fatigue should be made by all involved in the chase.


So, what do you think?

Does moving double speed, when twice speed is the maximum speed allowed because of terrain, the same as running 4 x Speed on normal terrain?

No. A double move action is considered "hustling." A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. (PHB, page 164) Hustling for a second hour in between sleep cycles deals 1 point of nonlethal damage, and each additional hour deals twice the damage taken during the previous hour of hustling. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from hustling becomes fatigued.

I'll leave your other questions for others to answer.

 

[Ashtagon]

If they were moving at their maximum "running" speed (x3 or x4, then reduced by difficult terrain rules) and being slowed down because of terrain, that counts against the running endurance timer. If they were moving at their "hustling" speed (x2, then reduced by difficult terrain rules), they can continue at that speed for an hour before fatigue comes into play.

When it comes to climbing fatigue vs running fatigue, I'd consider count that as two independent fatigue count-down timers, as the two exercise different sets of muscles. I'm sure that would create odd loopholes somewhere though.

By RAW, a javelin strapped to the back doesn't impose any particular restrictions on movement. By heroic rules standards, that's an entirely reasonable approach. By realistic standards, I don't think I'd impose a penalty on that either.

 

[Water Bob]

CLIMB & FATIGUE

In the sober reality of the next day, I've come up with an answer about the Climb question above.

If a normal climb were considered against the fatigue timer, then long climbs would never be accomplished. Even those with super-hero CON scores couldn't last more than 2-4 minutes. And, since we know that some of the largest mountains in the world have been scaled--and that it's possible to climb for longer than 2-4 minutes without be fatigued--that a normal climb can't be subject to the CON fatigue counter.

Now, if we're talking about accelerated climb actions, when the character moves twice as fast, taking a -5 on his climb skill, I could see an argument that a number of these types of moves in a row could be considered subject to the fatigue counter.





JAVELIN, QUIVER, AND CLIMBING

As for the javelin on the back, in a quiver, I'm still inclined to not penalize the climber.

The players are looking for any excuse to slow this bad guy down--the one that they are chasing. But, I have to look at the rules from two angles. I always try to ask myself, before I make a rule, "Would I do the same thing to a PC if the PC were the one being chased?"

I don't think I'd penalize a PC for having a javeling in a quiver strapped to his back while climbing under these circumstances. If the javelin were quite long, I would. But a normal javelin, 3-5' long, I don't think so.

I could see an argument for a -2 penalty on the Climb check, though.





IF MAX MOVE IS 2X SPEED, IS THAT A HUSTLE OR A RUN?

As for the other part of the question (movement), I guess that's still up in the air.

Moving 2x Speed is a Hustle, but is it still a Hustle is that's as fast as one can run due to terrain?

So...is is still considered a Hustle? Or, is it considered 4x speed--a full-out Run--that is reduced by terrain factors.

The player's argument is since the characters could run no faster than 2x Speed due to the terrain that it should be considered a Run (not a Hustle).

The other side of that argument is that 2x Speed = Hustle, and that's it.

I don't know where I stand on this issue yet.





EDIT: On the Movement Issue, I saw a pretty good response on another forum. The other poster said: The test to see if they characters were considered running full-out was if they were running in a straight line or zig-zagging around, dodging rocks, skiping over rabbit holes, and stuff like that. If the former, the straight-line movement would mean a Run (reduced to 2x Move for terrain) and be subject to the fatigue counter.

If the latter, with the non-straight line movment, then the move should be considered a Hustle.

I think this makes some sense.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Moving 2x Speed is a Hustle, but is it still a Hustle is that's as fast as one can run due to terrain?

Yes.

So...is is still considered a Hustle? Or, is it considered 4x speed--a full-out Run--that is reduced by terrain factors.

Only if you're applying the rules incorrectly.

If they were moving at their maximum "running" speed (x3 or x4, then reduced by difficult terrain rules) and being slowed down because of terrain, that counts against the running endurance timer.

That's not how it works, though. You simply cannot Run across difficult terrain.

If you could Run across difficult terrain (at half speed), a character with a speed of 30 could cover 60 feet in a round. The same character could double move (i.e., hustle) only 30 feet. But as the rules are, he cannot Run across difficult terrain at all, so the fastest he can move is 30 feet per round.

 

[Water Bob]

But as the rules are, he cannot Run across difficult terrain at all, so the fastest he can move is 30 feet per round.

The point the player is making is this...

Player: I want to run accross forest and chase the bad guy.

GM: You can't run. The forest is pretty dense with trees, undergrowth, boulders and bushes. It's considered Difficult Terrain.

Player: OK, well, I'll move as fast as I can, putting every effort into it. How much ground am I covering every round?

GM: Let's see.... You can Hustle, which is a double move--normally 60' per round. But, the Terrain cost is 2x normal, which means your Hustle allows you to move 30' by the end of the round.

....

....

....

GM: The good news is that you're not "running", so you're not subject to the Fatigue check.

Player: If I'm moving as fast as I can, pouring every effort into it, what does it matter how far I actually move? Am I not expending the same effort whether I run at 4x Speed on a standard road or 1x Speed through a forest? Shouldn't I make the Run CON fatigue check?''

 

[Dross]

CLIMB & FATIGUE

JAVELIN, QUIVER, AND CLIMBING

As for the javelin on the back, in a quiver, I'm still inclined to not penalize the climber.

The players are looking for any excuse to slow this bad guy down--the one that they are chasing. But, I have to look at the rules from two angles. I always try to ask myself, before I make a rule, "Would I do the same thing to a PC if the PC were the one being chased?"

I don't think I'd penalize a PC for having a javeling in a quiver strapped to his back while climbing under these circumstances. If the javelin were quite long, I would. But a normal javelin, 3-5' long, I don't think so.

I could see an argument for a -2 penalty on the Climb check, though.

If the players are saying that the bulkyness of the quiver is what would cause problems (it can't be the weight), then maybe the PCs need to remember what they are carrying around. Quivers of Ehlonna are fairly common but are the same size as a normal quiver. Backpacks, magical or not. Swords in sheaths (or the equivalent for maces, hammers etc). Spears, Greatswords, Greataxes, double weapons.

Simpler to handwave that away as: things are placed in such a way that they do not impede movement.

 

[Vegepygmy]

The point the player is making is this...

No, I get what he's saying. I'm simply telling you what the rules are.

As for whether the rules should be different...I don't know. Frankly, I do see a difference between running (sprinting) and trying to move over difficult terrain as fast as you can. In my youth, I "hustled" down to the floor of the Grand Canyon and back up; there was no way on Earth I could have sprinted that route. Nor could I have sprinted for the several hours it took me to "hustle" it. So I kind of agree with the rules as they are: you simply can't run in difficult terrain, and what you can do is strenuous, but it isn't equivalent to running.

 

[Water Bob]

If the players are saying that the bulkyness of the quiver is what would cause problems (it can't be the weight)....

Their point is the weapon's length. The NPC is climbing on the vines that grow like a ship's rigging on these big trees. He climbs on the vines to the limbs, then sometimes uses a vine, tarzan style, to swing to another limb.

The arguement the player is making is that the javelin, due to its length, would be hard to climb with because it could stick in the net-like vines.

I'm still thinking of giving the NPC a -2 penalty to climb, then enforcing the heck out of this if a PC ever gets caught doing the same thing.

So I kind of agree with the rules as they are: you simply can't run in difficult terrain, and what you can do is strenuous, but it isn't equivalent to running.

I agree with the rule, too--just need to convince my player of it.