D&D General Railroading - A Different Take

Treating "unreasonable player behavior" like it's part of the game environment is an antipattern. In no recreational activity is it normal to have participants informed on how to operate while including antagonists, as if the handbooks said "if the opponent boxer routinely kicks you in the nether region, you ..." or "if a player refuses to roll dice and just moves their piece onto the good spaces, you ..." --- you just stop playing with them, naturally.

Of course, people need to be coached, rules and procedures are not innately understood, mistakes will be made, etc., so some provisional exception to bad behavior is acceptable and allowable, but to contort the game or sport around uncouth behavior is ridiculous.

I believe that people who treat their players --- not their PCs, mind you, PvDM or other competition is not innately a problem, but the humans specifically --- as antagonists have set themselves up for failure and nurture an environment where antagonistic behavior is fostered, because it is fed rather than shunned.
 

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I think that's the real issue. You can see that for several posters, "players (including DMs) are reasonable" is an a priori assumption. It doesn't matter what sort of game you play, so long as everyone is reasonable.

I haven't encountered any unreasonableness since we were teenagers, and had not developed adequate social skills, but I guess we see on the news that there people can get to old age without learning social skills, and treat every interaction as if it were a conflict with a winner and a loser. We know that there are some people on this forum that can only play over the internet, were they are more likely to encounter people with underdeveloped social skills, or just culturally different ideas about what constitutes acceptable behaviour. But there is also the matter that if you set up a a game based on the assumption that participants will be unreasonable, do you encourage unreasonable behaviour?
I agree. I still think in the gaming community, at least all the different gaming communities I have had the pleasure of experiencing in my 40 years, there have been only two unreasonable people. And one of those was at a convention. The other was at a game shop and was just young and not socially mature.
 

I agree. I still think in the gaming community, at least all the different gaming communities I have had the pleasure of experiencing in my 40 years, there have been only two unreasonable people. And one of those was at a convention. The other was at a game shop and was just young and not socially mature.

That's the same as me 2 or so truly problem/unreasonable players in 40 years. I can't even imagine having encountered "hundreds!"
 

If you set up a a game based on the assumption that participants will be unreasonable, do you encourage unreasonable behaviour?

I think that you do.

I know that if I tell my wife, "you are being unreasonable", whether I'm right or not, or if I only meant that she was being a little unreasonable, she will immediately become very, very unreasonable.

I get to be "right", but I don't get to be happy about it!
 


I think its one of those "if you think everyone else is the problem, I got bad news for you," situations.

There are a few people who seem to be hitting issues on a regular basis that I have never seen or only a couple of times over the decades of playing with many different DMs and players. Either they are extremely unlucky or they're definition of problematic DMs and players is vastly different than mine. I'm never sure what to tell those people because I'm not sure there is a solution that they'd be willing (or possibly even able) to accept.
 

I don't think that you necessarily encourage unreasonable behaviour where it wouldn't already occur. But you are making the decision that you're willing to play with unreasonable people, and placing what I believe is misplaced faith in the ability of rules to mitigate unreasonableness.

Other people can make their own decisions but, for me, I simply choose not to play with unreasonable people -- and if that meant I didn't get to play at all, it would still be an easy choice.
I think that the situation is far from being that simple. If you look at the last several posts on this tangent they largely focus on the singular root cause of teenagers & under with some flavor of what multiple posters have dubbed poor/undeveloped social skills as the entire spectrum of problem players. That's absolutely true & one source of problem players where rules don't really solve much, but it's not the only source. When I was still running AL regularly I would see those types occasionally, but they tended to be self correcting problems that got crushed under the weight of mass 🖐️🛑"dude that's not ok"🛑🖐️ with very little in the way of players leaving it to the gm while nope'ing out of the whole interaction.

The much more common type of problem player is the player who has the reasonably developed social skills but shows up with the wrong social contract. Those players believe they are acting reasonably & they would be if d&d were using the social contract for A or B below
  • A: FPS/mmo/moba/etc video game where "play to win me against everyone else" PvP/PvDM is totally normal & even somewhat encouraged
  • B: if d&d were a a freeform roleplay thing☆ where "Well MyYyYyYyYYyyyy ChArAcTeR..." type statements are somewhat expected to almost be the ultimate trump card for weaving in ways that make GM fiat & worldbuilding capabilities look positively restrained. Take the tortle thread or this reaction to an unprompted question of how I'd handle a hypothetical player proposing story goals/character arc/etc crashing into what is effectively a more detailed "I normally run eberron & none of that fits the setting but here's the reaction for discussion".

That second set of problem players does not generally ever trigger the sort of mass "dude that's not ok" that the undeveloped social skills crowd does & they have the social skills to ensure that no single PvDMchoice/action/story declaration they make at the table can singularly do so, but the game rulea very much impact them. The "dude that's not ok" peer pressure cannon doesn't really point at this group because there's usually only the GM who needs to track or be affected by the cumulative impact of players operating under a slightly different social contract. With most of the group not really tracking it unless the GM creates a problem by being overly restrictive & stopping the game for the slightest maybe-line crossing it becomes very easy for players with largely unaffected PCs to completely tune out any disagreement between that player & the GM or to get roped in on if that singular action/choice/story declaration could be reasonable in isolation just to break a stalemate between two people who are both certain they are backed by both social contract & rules.

☆ It's the best nonspecific example of a roleplaying community I can think of that doesn't call out any particular community or subgroup of roleplayers.

@AlViking different definition most likely. It's a sliding scale & the tools that once handled/mitigated innocently misunderstandings from that second group above in the background were largely removed from 5e. This whole tangent started after I simply mentioned "In the past there was usually some degree of another player pushing back because they want the treasure/gear/whatever offered to cover things their PC needs, but it becomes real easy to play the railroad card real fast when nobody else has a reason to stand in its way."
 

I agree. I still think in the gaming community, at least all the different gaming communities I have had the pleasure of experiencing in my 40 years, there have been only two unreasonable people. And one of those was at a convention. The other was at a game shop and was just young and not socially mature.
Same here, people who are significantly unreasonable and stay that way after a short conversation are really rare in my experience. I play in a lot of in-person open games, some Adventurer's League, some West Marches style, some multi-dm short campaigns, and some pickup games. For an example, the main AL group near me (there's at least several at different stores) has been going for around ten years, running a 12+ tables a week plus occasional weekend conventions at its peak and now running 2-5 tables a week. In that time, the group has banned something like half a dozen people total out of hundreds of players who turn up with no filtering beyond 'can find out about the game and show up', and most of those weren't even about in-game behavior (things like threatening to staff or bringing in outside alcohol).
 

Same here, people who are significantly unreasonable and stay that way after a short conversation are really rare in my experience. I play in a lot of in-person open games, some Adventurer's League, some West Marches style, some multi-dm short campaigns, and some pickup games. For an example, the main AL group near me (there's at least several at different stores) has been going for around ten years, running a 12+ tables a week plus occasional weekend conventions at its peak and now running 2-5 tables a week. In that time, the group has banned something like half a dozen people total out of hundreds of players who turn up with no filtering beyond 'can find out about the game and show up', and most of those weren't even about in-game behavior (things like threatening to staff or bringing in outside alcohol).
I haven't followed this thread all the way through. Are we really talking about really bad behavior or just various forms of munchkinism? I agree really bad behavior and I'm kicking the offender out of the house and my campaign. Show some serious remorse and maybe you can get back in next time. But players trying to game the game for their advantage will often happy if the DM is not paying attention. I felt as DM especially early on that combating "cheating" was one of my primary responsibilities. And while they might choose to do things almost always they would make the game worse so by combating this form of bad behavior I was making THEIR game better. Gygax talks at length about such things. A DM has to make it hard and keep them wanting more. Why does this seem human nature? I don't know.
 

The much more common type of problem player is the player who has the reasonably developed social skills
Nope, doesn’t wash. If everyone had properly developed social skills they would discuss until they were on the same page, or decide the game wasn’t for them and walk away with no hard feelings. If reasonable people have a clash of social contracts, they talk it out.
 

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