Reflex Saves

kramis

First Post
Are there any rules governing reflex saves when asleep? I couldn't find them. I would assume you don't get one, but I try not to assume too much with 3e rules since they don't always follow common sense.

How about with regard to evasion and improved evasion?
 

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No rules that I can recall but I would treat the sleeper to have dex 0 (-5). Evasion would work normally.

The rationale being that they could wake up and react in time, but they suffer a serious disadvantage.
 

Reflex saves

Not that I can find. Saves in general are conceptually unclear. Reflex in particular.
Sleep is one condition, how about Stunned?, Held?, Helpless?

Presumably none of those conditions allow you to do anything. Still, it would be the only save that had such obvious circumstance modifiers. Perhaps the best way it to figure in the effective dexterity penalty.

Under coup de grace it suggests that helpless characters have 0 effective Dex.
That would be a -5 Reflex save. Maybe that is a good rule of thumb for saves under those conditions. Even reasonably high level people would notice that.

Steve
 

I would not allow sleeping, held, bound or similarly immobile characters a Reflex save, as a Reflex save presupposes an ability to move in reaction to an event.
 

The answer to part of this is in the latest Dragon Magazine #305. Under Sage Advice, there is a breakdown of when and how the evasion ability works. IIRC, it does work when being attacked by an invisible foe, but it does not if the PC is held or helpless.

In the DMG, p. 84, you'll see that the helpless condition includes sleeping. Listed is plenty of information on how that effects the rules. Per the Sages ruling, Evasion and Improved Evasion are not allowed because the PCs are technically helpless. As for whether a helpless character is allowed a Reflex save is another matter.

I can't really find anything regarding Saving Throws and unconsciousness. I would make up whatever you feel is sound. E.g. Charm Person fails (no Will save req'd), poison still gets a Fort save, and no reflex save unless the action would awake the character (rolling them off a cliff).
 

Re: Reflex saves

scholz said:
Under coup de grace it suggests that helpless characters have 0 effective Dex.
That would be a -5 Reflex save. Maybe that is a good rule of thumb for saves under those conditions. Even reasonably high level people would notice that.

Isn't there a section in the MM where it talks about attributes that creatures with a 0 dex don't get reflex saves? I may be wrong in that, not sure.
 

Re: Re: Reflex saves

Crothian said:
Isn't there a section in the MM where it talks about attributes that creatures with a 0 dex don't get reflex saves? I may be wrong in that, not sure.

I think you may be thinking of the part where it talks about attributes that have a rating of "-". Those attributes, for the most part, have the creature automatically failing the keyed saving throw (except for a Con score of "-" where you are immune to those effects unless they affect objects, in which case you save normally). That would be because a score of "-" isn't 0.

Or I could be completely wrong, I'm not sure.
 
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Re: Re: Re: Reflex saves

Alzrius said:


I think you may be thinking of the part where it talks about attributes that have a rating of "-". Those attributes, for the most part, have the creature automatically failing the keyed saving throw (except for a Con score of "-" where you are immune to those effects unless they affect objects, in which case you save normally). That would be because a score of "-" isn't 0.

Or I could be completely wrong, I'm not sure.

That sound slike what I was thinking about.
 

If "Sleeping" = "Helpess," then its easy.

Helpless states that Dex = 0 when helpless. Simply make teh character have a temp Dex score of "0," meaning a -5 modifier to to Reflex saves.

One might presume that Evasion would not apply, but, frankly, if a Reflex save is allowed at all then I think Evasion should apply.

Since the "Helpess" condition does not in and of itself preclude a Reflex save, I'd allow Evasion to work.

Any condition that allows a Reflex save should also allow Evasion by the definitions of when they apply.
 

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