D&D General Reinterpreting Fullcasters as Halfcasters, while preserving the Fullcaster feeling. (+)

[Steampunkette]

IMHO, the problem was with mystic arcanum itself as it was a kludge used to give warlocks 9th level magic when they figured out pact magic goes off the rails after level 9. Had the desire/edict of backwards compatibility not been a thing, a half caster warlock split between the artificer and gish would have been a infinity better design. Just kill mystic arcanum like the tacked on garbage it was and beef up the warlocks invocations.

Ehhhh... kind of...

All the full casters only get one 8th or 9th spell, too. It was definitely a -choice- to implement it the way they did... but I don't think it was a Kludge to give them access to higher level spells. It was just a way to do it.

Personally, I wish they -hadn't-. And instead focused on ways to make the rest of the warlock's kit scale past level 10 to make them really strong and good outside of higher level spell slots. More free utility magic, more invocation improvements, more pact improvements, etc.

The Tales of the Valiant Warlock is designed like this, but much better. It would be a better chassis to build all full casters off of, if that was what you were going to do.

I ... really can't agree with that. ToV looked at the 5.5e UA Warlock and went "That's not good design" and ran with it.

At 1st level they not only lose their Patron they also lose their Pact Magic. Instead they get a Cantrip and a Pact Boon. So a level 1 Tome Warlock can cast 3 cantrips and Eldritch Blast. And that's it. That's all they get. It's too late to fix it, but damn they had to try and play into WotC's attempts to homogenize everything.

"Just start at 3rd level, the first three levels are just training wheels" then just make a game that STARTS at 3rd level and goes to 20. Or "1st" and goes to 17.

Don't get me wrong, ToV has lots of stuff going for it, and their designers are good people with good intentions, I just hate what they did in service to homogenization while also leaving the one thing that SHOULD be drawn toward homogenization completely untouched (resource economy/5mwd)

Compare them to the Paladin or the Ranger, the other Hybrid Classes. Paladins at level 2 get their smite, spellcasting, and Martial Action. Warlocks get the same spellcasting, so that's a wash, and then invocations... none of which are as strong as smite, though they're more flexible than Martial Action in selection they don't do any more damage or otherwise stack up...

And Ranger... well. Okay. Ranger is undertuned to hell and back as well, but at least they get the extra d4 of throughput right out of the gate.

Anyway, yeah... I feel like most game designers miss the lessons of previous editions when they create their version of D&D, in the end. And fall into the same traps again and again and again.

 

[Remathilis]

Ehhhh... kind of...

All the full casters only get one 8th or 9th spell, too. It was definitely a -choice- to implement it the way they did... but I don't think it was a Kludge to give them access to higher level spells. It was just a way to do it.

Personally, I wish they -hadn't-. And instead focused on ways to make the rest of the warlock's kit scale past level 10 to make them really strong and good outside of higher level spell slots. More free utility magic, more invocation improvements, more pact improvements, etc.

It was kludge because in 2014, you got one 6th, 7th, etc spell to use 1 day. You can't use your 7th level MA to upcast another spell, or even to cast your 6th level MA again. A real caster could use his 9th level spell slot in a variety of ways. The warlock uses his 9th level MA to cast one specific spell forever. (At least 2024 lets you swap it for a different spell).

That said, warlocks should have stopped at 5th level and high level abilities done via invocations.

 

[Steampunkette]

It was kludge because in 2014, you got one 6th, 7th, etc spell to use 1 day. You can't use your 7th level MA to upcast another spell, or even to cast your 6th level MA again. A real caster could use his 9th level spell slot in a variety of ways. The warlock uses his 9th level MA to cast one specific spell forever. (At least 2024 lets you swap it for a different spell).

That said, warlocks should have stopped at 5th level and high level abilities done via invocations.

I meeeeeeean... if you wanna get spicy with it...

Warlocks never should've had spell slots to begin with. Even on a short rest.

I sincerely feel like their Invocations should've been -everything-. Spell-Invocations for at will or once per X rest spell options. Skill invocations for things like Silver Tongue but also maybe Light Fingers or Minute Seeing. And then just a -plethora- of Eldritch Blast invocations to use your blast in a variety of ways with more damage than the 5e EB deals because it'd be the centerpiece of their combat capabilities.

Closer to the 3e implementation of Warlocks.

But after 4e they realized how -good- a design it is to do encounter powers and went "People wil ltake short rests after fights, let's use that as a marker!" and then forgot about it for the rest of the casters...

I do love the X magic per short rest design, but I think A5e nailed that by going for Spell Points instead of automatic upcasting and a set number of slots.

 

[Remathilis]

I meeeeeeean... if you wanna get spicy with it...

Warlocks never should've had spell slots to begin with. Even on a short rest.

I sincerely feel like their Invocations should've been -everything-. Spell-Invocations for at will or once per X rest spell options. Skill invocations for things like Silver Tongue but also maybe Light Fingers or Minute Seeing. And then just a -plethora- of Eldritch Blast invocations to use your blast in a variety of ways with more damage than the 5e EB deals because it'd be the centerpiece of their combat capabilities.

Closer to the 3e implementation of Warlocks.

I absolutely agree with all of this, but I would have also been fine with a mix of 3e style invocations and a half-caster to Provide some magical support. Like an artificer with invocations instead of infusions.

Pact magic was a noble experiment in trying to recreate the 4e encounter powers system in 5e, but I feel it's mostly a failed one. It just didn't gel with what the rest of 5e was doing.

To the OPs point, I think you could easily remove MA and replace it with some other abilities or additional invocations and nothing much would be lost.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Anyway, yeah... I feel like most game designers miss the lessons of previous editions when they create their version of D&D, in the end. And fall into the same traps again and again and again.

It's not just D&D either. It seems that the dominance of various role-playing preferences seems to cycle. But what drives me crazy is that whenever someone is in a position to bring their preferences into dominance, they talk about it like it's naturally just the objectively best way of doing things, and finally it's time it gets to happen! Even when 10 years earlier other people were essentially saying the same thing when they replaced your preference with the one you are now bringing back.

And of course, most people aren't very self-aware of this, so it just keeps repeating, over, and over, and over again.

(And the point of agreement being that they aren't trying to learn from the past so much as they are trying to just do it the way they like now that they have the power to do so, without the extra effort of attempting to improve it for everyone.)

 

[Tonguez]

Great Idea
I'd say Use the Paladin Spell Progression (so Level 1 = 2 slots, Level 20 = 43332 (Max Level 5))
Wizards also gain Arcane Charges = Proficiency bonus
Regain 1 Spell Slot on a Short Rest

Level 2 Detect Magic: You can always tell of an object is magical or affected by a spell. As an action, you can make an Intelligence (Arcana) check v DC to determine the general school of magic or DC 15 to identify the specific spell effect

Level 3 Cantrip Masteries per School*

Level 4 Spell Book Enhancement: You have studied the Spells Prepared in your Spellbook and may use Arcane Charges to enhance them improving duration, range or effect by adding a "cantrip mastery".
At Higher Levels Enhancements can be made to shape, damage and energy type

Level 5 Signature Spell You select a signature spell that is always prepared and can be cast with no spell slot once per rest
NOTE: Everything cost Arcane Charges, I just have decided how many...
Level 10 Prepared Spells do not require Concentration (allowing you to cast a second spell)
Level 11 Maximize Prepared Spells
Level x Spell Fusion -Allow 2 Spells to be merged (Fireball + Barrage)
Level 15 Free Counter Spell
Level 20 Spell Free for All

SPELL MASTERIES
Each wizard school gives a special flavour set of enhancements that only they can access.

EVOCATION

• Push -Push target 5 ft
• Splash - Deal ½ damage to one adjacent creature
• Shift - Change damage type (fire/lightning/cold/acid)
• Hazard -Create 5 ft hazard zone (difficult terrain until next turn)

ABJURATION

• Guard - Grant ally +1 AC until start of your next turn
• Screen -You cannot be targeted by reactions until next turn
• Conversion -When you take damage you gain 1 Arcane Charge
• Anchor - Ignore forced movement

ENCHANTMENT

• Mark - Mark target: next attack gains +2 to hit
• Sluggish - Target has -2 to next roll (attack/save/check)
• Hesitate -Target loses reaction OR bonus action (choose one)
• Linger - Extend charm/fear effects by 1 round

ILLUSION

• Decoy -target has disadvantage on next perception/check
• Veil - attackers have -2 to hit you
• Ghost - You cannot be targeted by opportunity attacks
• Doubt - Target suffers “doubt”: disadvantage on next attack OR loses reaction (their choice)

CONJURATION

• Shunt - Push or pull 5 ft
• Swap - Swap position with ally/object within 10 ft
• Cover - Create 5 ft obstacle (light cover)
• Rough ground - Target’s movement reduced by 10 ft

DIVINITION

• Assess - Learn resistance or vulnerability
• Guide - Gain +2 to next attack vs target
• Foresight - Gain +2 to next saving throw
• Preemptive Dodge - Move 5 ft as reaction after being targeted

TRANSMUTATION

• Adaptive Hide - Gain resistance to damage type until next turn
• Flicker - +10 ft movement
• Harden - +1 AC until next turn
• Shift - Gain advantage on Str/Dex checks or saves (choose one)

NECROMANCY

• Enervate -Deal +1d4 necrotic damage
• Dread -Target has -2 to next attack
• Chill - Target cannot take reactions
• Siphon - Heal for half of bonus necrotic damage dealt

* I havent done anything on costing Arcane Charges/Spell Masteries or on level scaling, but this is the rough idea

 

[Remathilis]

So here would be my "every class is a half-caster" ideas for revision.

Artificer: Leave exactly as is.
Bard: Buff bardsong abilities to allow for more 3e like buffing. Adding movement, grant temp hp, even granting extra attacks. Yes, the warlord sacrifices itself to buff the bard, but if we're stripping bard magic down, something has to fill that role again.
Cleric: Greatly expand the Divine Intervention mechanic. More uses and have them not just be free casting of spells.
Druid: Overbuff Wild Shape. Like Moon-druid level is the default level buff.
Warlock: Remove Mystic Arcaneum. Replace with better/more high level invocations.
Sorcerer: A boat-load of more sorcery points and metamagic choices.
Wizard: Probably something like the faster/wider progression shared earlier.

Net Effect: Magic becomes secondary to every class except Wizard. Every other class is instead banking on class features with unique mechanics rather than high level spells. Curve becomes flatter, less overlap in abilities, but classes beecome A LOT more complicated and expansion becomes a little more complicated as rather than create new spells, you need to create a bunch of new bard songs, divine powers, invocations, metamagics, etc.

 

[Mannahnin]

I'm not averse to further balancing martials & casters. There is a floor at which point a "caster" doesn't feel much like a caster. You clearly don't want to get to the point where casters use crossbows for most of their damage output (which happened a lot in older editions before decent cantrips).

That was only even theoretically possible in 3rd edition at low level. And assuming that you had an unusually high number of encounters per day.

3E is where wizards first even got crossbow proficiency (they didn't have it in any earlier version). 4E and 5E have unlimited cantrips. 1st level 3.x Wizards have two 1st level spells a day (counting the basically guaranteed +1 for an Int of 12 or better) and 3 cantrips, so if the DM threw a LOT of combat at a 1st/2nd level party, the Wizard could wind up shooting their crossbow multiple times. In practice that was rare, since healing was similarly limited, so DMs weren't going to be throwing 3+ fights a day at low level parties.

That being said, despite the exaggeration, I totally get that for a lot of players, having to even theoretically rely on mundane weapons, even as a backup, doesn't match the feel they want when they pick a primary caster class.

This is something I've gone back and forth on over the years and I think comes down to primarily a matter of taste- what kind of game/world/setting do people prefer? One in which mages can do magic all day long, every day, or one in which they can't?

 

[TwoSix]

This is something I've gone back and forth on over the years and I think comes down to primarily a matter of taste- what kind of game/world/setting do people prefer? One in which mages can do magic all day long, every day, or one in which they can't?

Yes.

It absolutely boils down to a taste issue, and the distribution of those tastes doesn't even split nicely along the fault lines of "old-school" and "new-school" or any other existing division between play style preferences. I know plenty of people who love modern D&D, but prefer casters to use darts and crossbows, and I know OSR-favoring types who love the idea of at-will cantrips.

I generally split the difference with house rules; cantrips are usable such that the caster will have plenty of uses available in combat. But the uses are limited enough (generally 10-20 uses a day per cantrip) that large-scale "industrial" usage isn't possible.

 

[CreamCloud0]

oops i posted this thread and then got sidetracked and didn't barely engage with it