Retrain Improved Inititative For Nimble Blade

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

I have a 12th level Teifling Rogue Daggermaster, Brutal Scoundrel, and although I like Improved Inititative because I get in the Sneak Attack damage, when I do get the Sneak Attack Damage in (via with the Improved Initiative) it's usually ranged and is always v. AC (most of her powers are melee). Otherwise, if I jump into melee first, she gets beat down. Also, there's a Cunning Bard in the Group and a Druid who knocks a lot of enemies prone (but sometimes our members change), thus, my rogue ends up getting CA quite a bit- Every other turn, if not more frequently.

So, I was wondering, do you think it would be a good move to retrain Improved Inititative for Nimble Blade?

 

[Mengu]

So, I was wondering, do you think it would be a good move to retrain Improved Inititative for Nimble Blade?

I'd say so. With high dex, you still have a good chance of going before some enemies any way, and can chuck a dagger at them. And if your allies can provide you with CA when you roll poor initiative, you're in good shape.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

Thanks.

I was looking at the optimization boards and NB was rated 2 color-codes higher, as well. It did seem that II came in handy at heroic, but as more party members gained abilities to grant her CA, the less necessary it became.

I'm glad too, because I hate missing with Sneak Attacks, especially with something like Bloodbath.

 

[blargney the second]

Rogues can get some of the most accurate attacks in the game, and it's *really* good.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yes to nimble blade, and no, you should not be relying on Improved Initiative for sneak attack damage.

Sounds to me like you're jumping into the fray at the beginning and monsters are attacking the first target: You.

This isn't really a good situation. Also, you're generally basing your ability to get combat advantage on the bard or the druid, but you -really- should be looking to the defender for your CA. As good as prone-pwn is, there's nothing more reliable and safe for a melee rogue to get combat advantage from than a defender simply -being- there.

 

[BobTheNob]

I thinks its a worthy retrain and wouldnt talk you out of it. That said...our party has a rogue as well, and took Imp Init. At the time I (as DM) thought the player was doing a bit of overkill.

Since then my position has changed. The impact of that CA in round 1 without really needing to do anything for it has proven to be a valuable feature. Its once per encounter, but hey, we have plenty of encounters, and with her ludicrous init its practically guaranteed to pay off. It doesnt really matter AC or Reflex cause our rogue is a clear +3-4 to hit ahead of the rest of the party and definately ahead of the curve for monsters they go up against. With CA, its hard to miss.
I cant see our groups rogue training it out (and shes human, so lets call it the human freeby anyway)

 

[Saeviomagy]

II doesn't just get you a first round CA, it also gets you a first round defensive option.

Surprise: charge, SA
First round: SA with something that lets you escape (there are plenty of shift granting, stunning, blinding, dazing etc powers to use), flee to cover.

Additionally, as a daggermaster, you can make good use of powers like cloud of steel to greatly improve your chances to crit someone with a sneak attack (you use the charge to position for the 5x5 blast, then choose whomever you crit to apply SA to, and soak the OA for retreating).

Oh, incidentally, perhaps you want to look at other feats for retraining? II and nimble blade are good enough that there's likely to be something else you could lose instead.

 

[Legildur]

I play a 9th level halfling artful dodger, so my experiences are not the same as the OP's as I mixed ranged and melee pretty effectively.

However, I took II and never looked backed. Nimble Blade is still one of those 'gee it would be nice to pick that up one day' feats, but I keep finding other feats of higher utility. So far I've taken Weapon Expertise and Focus (light blades), II and Two-Weapon Fighting.

I've not been wanting for attack bonus to date - not in any noticeable sense. Currently at +15 with a +1 dagger and usually at +17 courtesy of CA, and I'm not sure if the extra +1 on top of the +17 will really change things that much.

I concur with Saeviomagy that the higher initiative modifier is a defensive measure as much as an offensive measure. My rogue fills the 'scout' role (ie trap/monster detector), and being able to get out of trouble by going first saves a whole lot of grief.

Besides, it's nice when you roll low on the D20 to see your friends blink a few times when you still manage to get a modified result over 20 (+16 at the moment with +5 dex, +4 half-level, +4 II, +2 from warlord, +1 from elf)

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Don't forget Danger Sense. That's an option too, and depending on your overall strategy, might work even better than II.

 

[Xyrlove Woodsoul]

Yes to nimble blade, and no, you should not be relying on Improved Initiative for sneak attack damage.
Sounds to me like you're jumping into the fray at the beginning and monsters are attacking the first target: You.
This isn't really a good situation. Also, you're generally basing your ability to get combat advantage on the bard or the druid, but you -really- should be looking to the defender for your CA. As good as prone-pwn is, there's nothing more reliable and safe for a melee rogue to get combat advantage from than a defender simply -being- there.

I would jump into the fray sometimes, but sometimes I wouldn't. It was about 50/50. I learned quickly. If I won inititative, I'd usually start out with a ranged attack, Sky Flourish.
Your point of relying on the druid is a very good point. But our defender is all over the place on the battlefield. Our only defender is a swordmage. She's usually popping around the battlefield teleporting, so she does set my rogue up sometimes for CA (and my rogue sets her up, via, Sneak in the Attack). But the swordmage is more of a divide-and-conquer type defender- she actually makes a lot of enemies not attack her (via, White Lotus Riposte)- but I guess that's ok from what i hear? (she has some marking capability too- she needs more- Sword of Sigilis worked well, and it was a tough choice for her to retrain, but it was a level 1 attack power retrained for a paragon attack power. She does have an Aegis Blade but only comes into play once a day). She's kind of hard to hide behind and hang with, but maybe I'll try to start shifting around with her more, using some of my utilities?
It's kind of an odd group. We used to get beat down at heroic, but now everything seems to have come to fruition. Our barbarian in sort of defender-like now. He multiclassed and took Dreadnaught, and it really rounded him out well. But he takes off a lot too!
My rogue is the defender! Kidding.
My rogue picks her spots more now, and being a daggermaster now, with the high crit feature, and the high crit feat, and a vicious dagger, and backstabber, and slaying action, she cut enemies really deeply, so now enemies die quicker without having a full chance of beating her down.

II doesn't just get you a first round CA, it also gets you a first round defensive option.
Surprise: charge, SA
First round: SA with something that lets you escape (there are plenty of shift granting, stunning, blinding, dazing etc powers to use), flee to cover.
Additionally, as a daggermaster, you can make good use of powers like cloud of steel to greatly improve your chances to crit someone with a sneak attack (you use the charge to position for the 5x5 blast, then choose whomever you crit to apply SA to, and soak the OA for retreating).
Oh, incidentally, perhaps you want to look at other feats for retraining? II and nimble blade are good enough that there's likely to be something else you could lose instead.

Wow. I never really thought about charging first. Then I could use a move action with Tumbleset or Escape. And in other cases they'll be zapped somehow like how you stated. That will help a lot. Thanks!
I'll have to check out that Cloud of Steel Power.
I retrained for Nimble Blade. Her feats are Toughness, Weapon Focus, Backstabber, Slaying Action, Durable, Devastating Critical (p), Rogue Weapon Mastery (p) (bear in mind, we dont use the expertise feats, rather, the +1/+2/+3 thing)
Without the Toughness and Durable, she's really squishy.
I think your charge idea is going to solve a lot, but everything seems to be less of a problem now that our group has reached paragon.
So far, we've had 3 encounters, and shes still got her opening SA in, in 2 of them, even without II, and she never misses her SA.
I think things are going to work out. But any more suggestions are welcome.