D&D 5E (2024) Rules question on Lessons of the First Ones and Chained Feats

[ECMO3]

So one of the PCs in one of my games has a Warlock who took the Zhentarim Ruffian Origin Feat through Lessons of the 1st Ones at 2nd level. It was thematic because they were working with the Zhentarim.

Later at 4th level he took Zhentarim Tactics which requires the Zhentarim Ruffian feat as a prerequisite.

They just got to 7th level and now he wants to swap Lessons of the First Ones-Zhentarim Ruffian for Agonizing Blast-Truestrike

What are your thoughts on this? IF the game allows them to get rid of an invocation can he swap it out if it doing so would eliminate a prerequisite for a feat he already has?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

IMO the character could swap the invocation but chained feat would no longer work. Cheesing workarounds isnt the intent.

 

[rabirin]

Strictly rules as written: the prerequisite only matters when you take the feat, and as long as you have a feat, you gain its benefits. There are no rules regarding any requirement to continue meeting the prerequisites to gain the benefit of a feat.

To be frank about it, no rules exist to address this situation because it wasn't possible in 2014 5e, and either the 2024 designers didn't consider this scenario when creating the invocation or purposefully left this loophole open to encourage exploiting it.

 

[Zardnaar]

RAW its fine.

RAI shrug. Ask the DM.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The way I would do it is if a character no longer met the requirements for a feat they would have to swap that feat for a different one.

However, lessons of the first ones only lets you pick up background feats.

 

[ECMO3]

The way I would do it is if a character no longer met the requirements for a feat they would have to swap that feat for a different one.

However, lessons of the first ones only lets you pick up background feats.

ZHentarim Ruffian is a background Feat. I think he would be happy to trade Zhentarim Tactics for something else, let's just say it did not pan out as expected for him.

 

[Maxperson]

ZHentarim Ruffian is a background Feat. I think he would be happy to trade Zhentarim Tactics for something else, let's just say it did not pan out as expected for him.

By RAW I think it works. By RAI I think it should act like the invocation rule that says that you can't replace an invocation if it's a prerequisite for another invocation that you have. The intent seems to be that if you build off of something as a prerequisite, you can't change it later. Attunement to an item also ends if you no longer satisfy a prerequisite, further strengthening the idea that prerequisites are critical to keep what is built upon them.

Another possibility is that the wording of the Lessons of the First Ones doesn't say that the invocation acts like an origin feat. It says you get an origin feat and you can't swap feats, so that would effectively tie down the invocation. Even the Wish spell can't let you replace a feat that is a prerequisite for a different feat.

 

[Azzy]

ZHentarim Ruffian is a background Feat. I think he would be happy to trade Zhentarim Tactics for something else, let's just say it did not pan out as expected for him.

That being the case, I'd just go ahead and let the player replace both feats.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Yeah, replace both feats.

 

[bedir than]

How would you handle a character making a choice that removed multiclass prereqs?