[Savage Species] ECL of Quickling?

[Orco42]

I have a playing wanting to play a quickling in an upcoming game.

I tried to find the ECL of a quickling and I got +5 ECL, which seems low.

I then used Soldarin's ECL calculator and got +10 ECL, which seems high.
http://csserver.evansville.edu/~jc84/DD3/Monster_ECL.htm

What would you make the ECL?

Quickling
Small Fey

Hit Dice: 1d6 (3 hp)

Initiative: +8 (Dex)

Speed: 240 ft

AC: 23 (+1 size, +8 Dex, +4 haste)

Attacks: Dagger +9 melee

Damage: Dagger 1d4-1

Face/Reach: 5 ft by 5 ft/5 ft

Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, haste, special daggers*

Special Qualities: Natural invisibility, low-light vision

Saves: Fort +0, Ref +10, Will +4

Abilities: Str 8, Dex 27, Con 11, Int 15, Wis 15, Cha 14

Skills: Animal Empathy +5, Bluff +6, Concentration +4, Craft (any one) +3, Escape Artist +12, Hide +16, Jump +12, Listen +6, Move Silently +12, Sense Motive +5, Spot +6, Wilderness Lore +6

Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse (dagger)

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, daze, levitate, shatter, and ventriloquism. These abilities are as the spells cast by a 6th-level sorcerer (save DC 12 + spell level).

Skills: Quicklings receive a +8 racial bonus to Jump checks.

Feats: Quicklings gain the Spring Attack feat as a bonus feat.

* The player will not have the special daggers.

Here is the link to the quickling.
http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/fey/quickling.htm

Thanks for your advice.

 

[Orco42]

Bump....

Any suggestions?

ECL +5 seems low because of the abilties but I can't justify an ECL +10 either.

The big pros are natural invisibility, natural haste, and the outrageous movement.

But on the down side the HP's will really, really suck.

If it is ECL +5 and one level of rogue, a 5rd level caster will kill you almost everytime [See Invisibility, Magic Missile]. But at the same time a 6th level fighter will have a very tough time because he can not see you.

I think I am leaning for an ECL of +6 or so. Sound good?

 

[thundershot]

+1 Casts spells at a higher level than hit dice
+2 REALLY unbalanced stats
+1 haste
+1 invisibility
-1 Small size
+1 bonus feats
+2(?) INSANE speed

the daggers would have to be bought just like any other magic item, like pixies or satyrs or grigs.

So +7... take a 1st level quickling rogue and compare it to a level 8 rogue in the DMG (page 55, i'm not typing it all out).

Quicky loses in hp, but is even in Init. the big thing the quickling's gonna have going for it is being invisible and getting to use sneak attack all of the time, while everyone else is trying to find him. That speed is just... insane. One good hit can take him out, but that would require hitting him.



Chris

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'd stick with ECL +10. Natural invisibility is huge -- improved invisibility not subject to invisibility purge! Automatic haste (not to mention the movement rate), along with insane ability mods, make this a string race.

 

[CRGreathouse]

[BQuicky loses in hp, but is even in Init. the big thing the quickling's gonna have going for it is being invisible and getting to use sneak attack all of the time, while everyone else is trying to find him. That speed is just... insane. One good hit can take him out, but that would require hitting him.[/B]

Considering that a PC quickling would have an AC of 32+ (+1 size, +13 Dex [16 base + 16 racial + 4 gloves], +4 haste, +4 mage armor) and a 50% miss chance against most foes, and could Spring Attack out of danger against those foes who can see invisible, I don't think the hit points are that bad.

Once you get past level 5, this could be near-unstoppable -- only 4d6 damage, but AC close to 40. With a good Con (base 14), the character would likely have ~40 hit points, or enough to survive.

 

[thundershot]

Hey, I just did it by the book. Others can acid test... Gotta run to work!



Chris

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

It's only invisible in its natural climate or when not moving. Attacking removes the invisibility. (According to the linked website.) That takes away its ability to Sneak Attack on every attack and the 50% miss chance, unless it curls up into a ball and stops attacking.

I wouldn't count that against its ECL.

The feats entry is incredibly messed-up. It states Spring Attack is a bonus feat, but the Quickling has all of its prerequisites in advance, plus another feat, when it should have one feat. It either has three bonus feats or needs to be rewritten with more HD.

For now, I'd just reccomend nerfing the bonus feat, since it's very likely that any Quickling with suitable levels will take it anyway.

+1 for spellcasting above its level.
+2 for the stats
+1 for haste
+1 for AC (+4 haste bonus compares to natural armor bonus)
-1 for Small size
+1 for jumping (one and a half times the die result, plus a +8 racial bonus)
+1 for speed

There's no specific number listed for an enhanced speed of normal movement, but any fly speed with maneuverability less than Good is considered only a +1 adjustment. I'm inclined to think that a +1 will suffice for the Quickling-- especially since its ECL is already much higher than its HD.

This gives an ECL +6. Against a 7th level Rogue, it is completely crushed in hit points and base attack bonus. With Weapon Finesse (or a ranged weapon) and its insane Dexterity bonus, it can pretty much make up that distance, though it'll lag behind in number of attacks and Sneak Attack damage. The Rogue's skill ranks will be higher, but the Quickling's Dexterity bonus closes the gap on most of the Rogue's skills.

Even at second level Rogue (eight levels total), when the Quickling would gain the Evasion class ability, it would die immediately from the first area-affect spell a Wizard threw at it. Even taking only half damage, it would be a very dead Quickling. The eighth-level Rogue is about as likely to make that saving throw, and has far more hit points to endure with.

I think the Quickling fits just about right a +6 ECL. It feels like one of those races that just isn't playable, though-- it's either too far behind in hit points to survive, or its too powerful for the rest of the party.

 

[zoroaster100]

Invisible when not moving?

It doesn't make sense to me that the quickling would be invisible when standing still but not when moving. They way I had seen it portrayed before was that it was naturally invisible because of it's quicker-than-the-eye movement.

 

[Celebrim]

+1 for spellcasting above its level.
+2 for the stats
+1 for haste
+1 for AC (+4 haste bonus compares to natural armor bonus)
-1 for Small size
+1 for jumping (one and a half times the die result, plus a +8 racial bonus)
+1 for speed

I just want to point out that if anything small size is +1 ECL, not -1 ECL. The advantages of small size (+1 AC, +1 attack bonus, +4 hide bonus) generally outweigh the disadvantages (reduced carrying capacity, grappling penalty). The real disadvantage of small size is that small size creatures are supposed to be built with reduced attributes and reduced speed, but a small size race with medium sized attributes and speed is clearly superior in everything but carrying capacity to a medium sized race. Making quicklings into medium sized creatures would clearly reduce thier power if that was the only change. Grappling penalties are more than overcome by a single level of escape artist and the ultra high dex bonus. Carrying capacity isn't really an issue, especially given that armor weight is reduced.

I think the ECL of a quickling is closer to 10 than it is to 5, but basically I don't think they are a playable race. ECL is a broken means of judging power when it gets above +2 or so. You can't only focus on what the power of the creature will be at first level. If its only real drawback at first level is going to be hitpoints, you know that it has a VERY high ECL. I think rog3/ftr2 is going to make this character drive DM's insane. That 240 movement rate gives the quickling so many tactical advantages. Just imgine your ability to scout out dangers with a 240ft back and forth double move - even assuming that haste is nerfed and can't be used for an extra 240ft of movement. It's AC and reflex save are going to be insane, so much so that talk of area of effect spells and low hitpoints are missing the point entirely. The only real weakness is going to be will saves, but first the spell caster is going to have to be able to target the blasted thing and cast the spell without getting knifed or shot through with arrows by the quicklings readied action. If I were munchkining this critter up, I'd definately go for Shot on the Run.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

I suggest that you simply downgrade the Quickling a little bit to make it more balanced, otherwise, most likely the player just wants to do it for its insane stats.

A quick suggestion on how this would be done would probably be downgrading its Dexterity to 21, perhaps 19 a +8 or 10 bonus to a PC Quickling. Move the speed down to 80 ft. instead of 240 ft., that's just insane, if they want, they can take a double move action with ease with their extra partial action. Natural Invisibility only works in temperate climates, remember that, and since its more like Invisibility than Improved Invisibility, only the first attack would gain a sneak attack bonus and catch an opponent flatfooted, although it would still go back invisible after attacking (at least, that's how I interpret it). The spells and feat aren't a big problem, perhaps make it a bonus feat of dodge instead, or perhaps both dodge and mobility (to make Spring Attack easier to get if the player desires). All this for an ECL of +5 I think would be fair.