Saving throws can't hurt

[deleteme123456]

Hidden amongst a myriad of otherwise unimportant text, is this little nugget in PH2 (219), emphasis mine.

The new effect, specified in a "First Failed Saving Throw" or a "Second Failed Saving Throw" entry, takes effect after the target fails a saving throw against the previous effect at the end of the target’s turn. The effect doesn’t change if the creature fails a saving throw against it at a time other than the end of its turn.

This was a popular previous house rule, and I'm glad to see it in the core rules.

 

[Mengu]

Nice catch. Bonus saves may or may not succeed, but they never fail.

 

[Mort_Q]

The effect doesn’t change if the creature fails a saving throw against it at a time other than the end of its turn.

I'm not convinced that you could stretch that to include death saves... even though I want to be able to.

 

[Obryn]

Good eyes! This has been my house rule, and I'm glad it's official now. I think the Warden's class feature made this more or less necessary. "OK, Bob, take a save at the beginning of your turn. Hah! Failed it! You're not slowed, you're asleep! Next!"

-O

 

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

Nice. Clearly always the intent, made no sense to possibly penalize on the bonus save.

 

[keterys]

Awesome. No idea if my voice was heard or not, but 2 weeks after 4e came out last year Mike Mearls asked on his blog about what was the first houserule people were going to adopt and I put:

Proposed House Rule (that I wish were errata):

'Penalties for failed saves only trigger on saving throws made at the end of your turn. For purposes of "Failed Save" "First Failed Save" "Second Failed Save" or any similar mechanic, extra saves (such as from an item or power) are ignored completely.'

Example: A beholder hits Regdar with its petrifying ray. Jozan uses his sacred flame ability to give Regdar a saving throw, which Regdar fails. At the end of his turn, Regdar again fails his saving throw, which means that he triggers the "First Failed Save" penalty of becoming immobilized.

So, probably one voice among an awful lot, but it's nice to see system improvements asked for and enacted

 

[The Human Target]

Hey, thanks for that! I might not have noticed this for a while.

The warden's double save was actually one of the first things we noticed when flipping through PHB2, and one of our players asked if that meant that drow poison could take effect faster if you failed both saves.

Maybe thats because he fell asleep and fell off a roof when we fought some drow the last time.

 

[Roger]

That would appear to make maneuvers like delaying while you are unconscious or dying somewhat more useful.


Cheers,
Roger

 

[Mort_Q]

That would appear to make maneuvers like delaying while you are unconscious or dying somewhat more useful.

You can't delay if you're dazed or can't take actions. PH 288.

 

[deleteme123456]

I'm not convinced that you could stretch that to include death saves... even though I want to be able to.

I don't actually see why not. A death saving throw is one made at the end of your turn (PH 295), so any other save would be OK. I suppose what should really be clarified is whether powers which grant a saving throw grant that saving throw as a Free Action or as a No Action.