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<blockquote data-quote="Magus_Jerel" data-source="post: 141486" data-attributes="member: 3940">Regardless of the level of magic - to say that &quot;your dead&quot; no save... sounds cheesy to Me.Both of these things effect some preety serious numbers of HD here - and I don't think even a fifth level fireball could drop 10 3-6 hd creatures outright upon failed saves.&nbsp; Granted - fireball could hurt them, but when it comes to sleep - out cold is out cold... CDG bait.The fifth level version is even worse in this respect.With the SOLE execption of Power word Kill - there isn't a way to &quot;insta kill&quot; a creature of more than 5hd with no save.&nbsp; A few - Dictum in particular - could paralyze an entire legion of opponents - and you just walk in and chop em up.I find such spells - ones that say &quot;your dead - no save&quot; unbalancing as a concept.&nbsp; Sure... &quot;you take a boatload of damage&quot; is the same as &quot;you are dead&quot; - but any given character could deliver that said boatload - not just the spellcasters.It is my biased opinion that these spells should NOT be used or allowed&nbsp; in the D and D game - but... with that said, a few pointers.1, keep the HD count down at 4 to 8 hd2. Expand the radius, and even the number of HD knocked out - you might even consider going to a HP count, instead of HD.3. make sure to note that if the caster is possibly KO'd by his own spell - that He has to make a will save as well.4. Don't let these spells become the &quot;universal solution&quot; to encounters.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Magus_Jerel, post: 141486, member: 3940"] Regardless of the level of magic - to say that "your dead" no save... sounds cheesy to Me. Both of these things effect some preety serious numbers of HD here - and I don't think even a fifth level fireball could drop 10 3-6 hd creatures outright upon failed saves. Granted - fireball could hurt them, but when it comes to sleep - out cold is out cold... CDG bait. The fifth level version is even worse in this respect. With the SOLE execption of Power word Kill - there isn't a way to "insta kill" a creature of more than 5hd with no save. A few - Dictum in particular - could paralyze an entire legion of opponents - and you just walk in and chop em up. I find such spells - ones that say "your dead - no save" unbalancing as a concept. Sure... "you take a boatload of damage" is the same as "you are dead" - but any given character could deliver that said boatload - not just the spellcasters. It is my biased opinion that these spells should NOT be used or allowed in the D and D game - but... with that said, a few pointers. 1, keep the HD count down at 4 to 8 hd 2. Expand the radius, and even the number of HD knocked out - you might even consider going to a HP count, instead of HD. 3. make sure to note that if the caster is possibly KO'd by his own spell - that He has to make a will save as well. 4. Don't let these spells become the "universal solution" to encounters. [/QUOTE]

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