Shadowdark Shadowdark General Thread [+]

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Very basic write-up for today. I anticipate today's adventure is roleplay, followed by an encounter with one of these folks, which they won't have the ability to harm, and running away and coming back at another time, better armed and prepared. So I only need a rough draft for today's encounter.

GORGER
Cursed individuals who live off consuming the flesh of their fellow men and women, who now transform into monstrous hybrid hog men when they consume human flesh.
AC 12, HP 14, ATK 2 tusk +3 (1d6), MV near, S +3, D +0, C +1, I -2, W +1, Ch -2, AL C, LV 3
Impervious. Only damaged by pig iron or magic sources.

The group went back to finish off the farmhouse and encountered the parents. They unfortunately got action economied to death (I'd already established all of the adult kids were dead in the previous adventure), although Mama did try to get a spell off, via a talking wizard's skull. He failed his spellcasting roll, though, so that was that. (And now the party has a literal wizard in their pocket, since they insanely don't have a PC wizard most adventures.)

GORGER, HERD LEADER
Enormous hog men patriarchs and matriarchs, violent and ravenous for human flesh.
AC 12, HP 30, ATK 2 tusk +6 (2d6), MV near, S +4, D +0, C +3, I -3, W +2, Ch -3, AL C, LV 6
Impervious. Only damaged by pig iron or magic sources.

 

[Fenris-77]

I've zoomed out a level in my design work over the past week. I realized that my WiP Wardgrinder rules had a few issues and that I needed to solve the basic issues with the mechanic before I got back to designing Ashalom. Part of that is because I want to use the same basic mechanics to power a non-hexcrawl journey system for SD (and a non torchtimer dungeon encounter system) and that means I need to sort the mechanic first and then revisit the city design in light of the changes.

The journey system is going to be an A to B style mechanic broadly similar to the one in The One Ring, but with the journey broken down into legs from point of interest to point of interest like the mechanic in Stonetop. The players consult a map and plan their route. The GM takes the planned route and breaks it down into legs and assigns difficulties based on terrain/regions, with difficulty equaling the number of rolls you make on the encounter table. The table you roll on is a d20 table broken down like this:

• 1-5 Valleys - annoyances and setbacks. A short evocative bit and each player must consume one supply or mark one fatigue (Cairn-style fatigue)
• 6-10 Vistas - longer evocative bits describing the wonders and oddities of the terrain being traversed, including new locations
• 11-15 Chance - travel hazards and NPC encounters
• 16-20 Challenge - encounters with monsters and miscreants

Each terrain (think region, much as in Stonetop) has its own tables to fill out the above table and restock the table as results get used.

After a roll is resolved the group decides what to do next. They can push on and roll another journey result, they can make camp and try to recoup some resources (camp here isn't resolved daily, here it means a day of rest and there will be a procedure), or they can explore a location or point of interest (at which point the game zooms back into turn by turn exploration play).

There's a bunch of nuance yet to be decided on in a bunch of these areas, but that's the broad strokes.

 

[Fenris-77]

As a conversation starter, and also because I'm working on it, let me present a question. The tenets of OSR play as expressed in the Quick Primer for Old School Gaming and elsewhere mandates for rulings-not-rules which, roughly translated means encouraging player skill and out-of-the-bow p[roblem solving. OSR games are mostly aces at doing this in dungeon play. Perhaps slightly less successful in the wilderness, But where it's really bad is urban play, specifically investigation. There OSR play seems to fall back quickly on playing mother-may-I with the GM's prep. Even with the three clue rule and a node based design, it's still mother-may-I.

So what would it look like if we took that OSR mandate seriously and applied it investigative play?

 

[Scribe]

As a conversation starter, and also because I'm working on it, let me present a question. The tenets of OSR play as expressed in the Quick Primer for Old School Gaming and elsewhere mandates for rulings-not-rules which, roughly translated means encouraging player skill and out-of-the-bow p[roblem solving. OSR games are mostly aces at doing this in dungeon play. Perhaps slightly less successful in the wilderness, But where it's really bad is urban play, specifically investigation. There OSR play seems to fall back quickly on playing mother-may-I with the GM's prep. Even with the three clue rule and a node based design, it's still mother-may-I.

So what would it look like if we took that OSR mandate seriously and applied it investigative play?

Urban play was/is my last investigation path for a vanity project I'm playing with.

What is, Urban play, in the OSR?

Is it Scroll 6?
Is it Ptolus?
Is it City State of the Invincible Overlord?

To be honest I don't know.

Everything else I've got a decent grip on.

 

[timbannock]

Magical Industrial Revolution by Skerples may not answer the question directly in a lot of cases, but it does in a few.

At the end of the book is a "Help Guide": It presents some common questions, and tells you where to go in the city to get answers/solutions. Things like fencing illegal goods, getting different kinds of low-level magical aid, and finding common services (tavern, inn, stables, etc.) are all in there. In theory, if the characters are natives to the urban environ then you could simply hand them this sheet (maybe with a couple sections redacted in such a way that it piques their curiosity, replacing random rumors...?), and if they are newcomers, this becomes your answer sheet for when they start asking questions at the first tavern they find, or of the gate guards or whomever.

Similarly, it provides useful tables of NPCs and nested tables for urban encounters that all feed into each other. Many of these are effective rumor generators, and/or news generators. Either way, they are resources that lead to information, some of which will be generally helpful in any situation, others which might be more situationally useful or just show some color.

As for the actual investigation? That book has many useful points about such things, and a great system of how the setting changes over time, which should affect ground-level investigations. But more immediately useful is having named NPCs described less by stats and more by DNA - descriptors, needs/wants, and attitude (or in the case of some NPCs or factions, assets). Descriptors are 2-3 words or short phrases that describe the character; that's the roleplay juice. Needs/Wants tells you what the NPC is amenable to or looking for, and thus what might motivate them to spill their info or strike deals. Attitude tells you their default attitude and what might influence it; some NPCs are open to bribes, others entirely closed off to them, and same for intimidation or pleasantries or whatever. For NPCs that come up in the "heat of the moment," just have a d12 or d20 table for each of those things, and you can whip up an NPC on the fly who has real motivations and reactions. (Keep the tables short at first, and cross off things you use twice, then update the tables with new results when more than a third of the things are crossed off. This keeps creating the tables evocative and also doable in under 15 minutes, rather than spending hours trying to come up with a d100 table for each or something of that magnitude.)

I don't really think you need more than that. If coming up with the mysteries themselves is the issue, then you can look to games like Night's Black Agents (the Conspyramid method is awesome for a conspiracy-investigation) or other Gumshoe games that might feature things like whiteboarding a mystery.

 

[Fenris-77]

There are indeed great resources about how to build and run great fantasy cities. To my taste a lot of it falls just a touch flat, but there's lots of good advice out there. But investigations, while certainly an aspect of urban play, are their own special problem.

 

[Fenris-77]

Obviously I have opinions, but I wanted to see what other people thought before I produced the soapbox and megaphone.

 

[overgeeked]

As a conversation starter, and also because I'm working on it, let me present a question. The tenets of OSR play as expressed in the Quick Primer for Old School Gaming and elsewhere mandates for rulings-not-rules which, roughly translated means encouraging player skill and out-of-the-bow p[roblem solving. OSR games are mostly aces at doing this in dungeon play. Perhaps slightly less successful in the wilderness, But where it's really bad is urban play, specifically investigation. There OSR play seems to fall back quickly on playing mother-may-I with the GM's prep. Even with the three clue rule and a node based design, it's still mother-may-I.

So what would it look like if we took that OSR mandate seriously and applied it investigative play?

Maybe not exactly what you're looking for, but check out Public Access, it's a PbtA game. The bit I'm thinking of is how they handle mysteries, obviously. The mystery is defined by a long list of clues and a number but no solution is provided. The referee drops the clues where the PCs look, gated by a roll. Investigate here for clues, make a roll. If you pass, gain a clue from the list. Once they've collected clues equal to the mystery's listed number, they can try to solve it. Also with a roll. The PCs have to create an explanation themselves that includes a number of clues equal to the mystery's number. If they use exactly that number, it's a straight roll. The more clues they incorporate into their explanation, the bigger a bonus they get. If they make the roll, that becomes the solution to the mystery.

Clearly that's not "pure OSR style" investigation, but it works a treat. Still have to do prep, it is a mystery. But much less forcing PCs into specific locations and waiting for them to look in specific places to find a specific clue otherwise the whole thing stalls.

Return of the Lazy DM also has some good advice about just dropping clues where the PCs look. No roll. It's literally that simple. Again, still have to prep it because it's a mystery.

 

[Fenris-77]

Maybe not exactly what you're looking for, but check out Public Access, it's a PbtA game. The bit I'm thinking of is how they handle mysteries, obviously. The mystery is defined by a long list of clues and a number but no solution is provided. The referee drops the clues where the PCs look, gated by a roll. Investigate here for clues, make a roll. If you pass, gain a clue from the list. Once they've collected clues equal to the mystery's listed number, they can try to solve it. Also with a roll. The PCs have to create an explanation themselves that includes a number of clues equal to the mystery's number. If they use exactly that number, it's a straight roll. The more clues they incorporate into their explanation, the bigger a bonus they get. If they make the roll, that becomes the solution to the mystery.

Clearly that's not "pure OSR style" investigation, but it works a treat. Still have to do prep, it is a mystery. But much less forcing PCs into specific locations and waiting for them to look in specific places to find a specific clue otherwise the whole thing stalls.

Return of the Lazy DM also has some good advice about just dropping clues where the PCs look. No roll. It's literally that simple. Again, still have to prep it because it's a mystery.

I have Public Access and have even written for it. It's a wonderful game. Gauntlet Gaming does great work. I wanted to stop short of the Brindlewood Bay mystery mechanic though, even filtered through PA or even The Between, which use the same core mechanic. As much as I love it, it does give some OSR folks the agita, which I want to avoid. However, I am gesturing in that very direction when I talk about honouring clever player plans in terms of mysteries.

 

[Scribe]

What thread am I in, these 2 'Shadowdark General +' threads have me lost.

Anyway, I need some recommendations on OSE/BX/AD&D/Shadowdark City/Urban Adventures.

Am I wrong, or are there no major stand out options for that era?