Shadowrun v4 - Your Experience
Ashrum the Black
Explorer
I've been DMing some SRv4 for the last few weeks and I've found some llikes and dislikes as you can well imagine. I've found the combat system to on average be fast and loose, allowing for some fun moments and for some nice combats. It is by and large a very deadly system, which is perfectly fine by my thinking.
The magic system is nice, but I do have some quibbles. I don't like what they've done with the hermetic and shamanic magic system. Gone are the days of each summoning their own style of spirit. Also, now all mages have access to "Totems", now called spirit mentors. I personally feel that this has removed some of the flavor of the system, but I also understand the want of bringing the plethora of different traditions under control. Personally I think a better method would have been to subsume the other traditions into one or the other of the basic ones and left things as they were.
Decking, now called hacking, has seen the biggest changes, and my internal jury is still out on this section. Gone are the "deck" and now your comlink, a PDA/Cell on super steroids have replaced them. Everything is wireless, and now because of that you can hack everything directly. Want the door opened? No need to hack the security SPU, now just hack the doors wireless signal directly and spoof the commands to it the same way. One open door. I kind of like that, but then when I want to start hacking in deeper to the system the system bogs down. The whole section could have done with a couple of good examples on how a data system for a corp would have been set up.
The decking section on a whole is considered the weakest and I think for good reason. It really needs some further explanation and some decent examples to give a DM a good grasp on where the writers heads were. I keep reading it and start thinking Ghost in the Shell: SAG, but since by and large the hacking there just shows you the results, it's still hard to wrap my mind around how a paranoid corp would secure their system.
Fan Pro, which used to produce the system has lost the liscence and a new company called Catalyst Games has picked it up. The entire staff from Fan Pro is moving over with the liscence so we shouldn't see any magor changes in direction and how things work. They have a mega adventure (Emergance) at the printers now, and the Agumentation (cyber) book should be out around Gen Con they say. Arsonel (guns) is due around Christmas, and the Unwired (hacking) book is due shortly after the new year. traditionally these dates have been rpetty fluid, but we'll see what the new company can do.
-Ashrum
The magic system is nice, but I do have some quibbles. I don't like what they've done with the hermetic and shamanic magic system. Gone are the days of each summoning their own style of spirit. Also, now all mages have access to "Totems", now called spirit mentors. I personally feel that this has removed some of the flavor of the system, but I also understand the want of bringing the plethora of different traditions under control. Personally I think a better method would have been to subsume the other traditions into one or the other of the basic ones and left things as they were.
Decking, now called hacking, has seen the biggest changes, and my internal jury is still out on this section. Gone are the "deck" and now your comlink, a PDA/Cell on super steroids have replaced them. Everything is wireless, and now because of that you can hack everything directly. Want the door opened? No need to hack the security SPU, now just hack the doors wireless signal directly and spoof the commands to it the same way. One open door. I kind of like that, but then when I want to start hacking in deeper to the system the system bogs down. The whole section could have done with a couple of good examples on how a data system for a corp would have been set up.
The decking section on a whole is considered the weakest and I think for good reason. It really needs some further explanation and some decent examples to give a DM a good grasp on where the writers heads were. I keep reading it and start thinking Ghost in the Shell: SAG, but since by and large the hacking there just shows you the results, it's still hard to wrap my mind around how a paranoid corp would secure their system.
Fan Pro, which used to produce the system has lost the liscence and a new company called Catalyst Games has picked it up. The entire staff from Fan Pro is moving over with the liscence so we shouldn't see any magor changes in direction and how things work. They have a mega adventure (Emergance) at the printers now, and the Agumentation (cyber) book should be out around Gen Con they say. Arsonel (guns) is due around Christmas, and the Unwired (hacking) book is due shortly after the new year. traditionally these dates have been rpetty fluid, but we'll see what the new company can do.
-Ashrum
D'karr
Adventurer
Ashrum the Black said:
Ashrum, how does it compare to SR2 and SR3 in terms of ease (rules wise). Does it keep lots of the flavor and change the mechanics drastically or does is lose flavor and mechanics?
Warts and all, I loved SR2 and SR3 and would hope that they didn't kill most of the spirit (flavor) of SR.
Master of the Game
First Post
I've been playing a weekly game for several months now, and we really like it. I've played all the previous editions, and there is no doubt in my mind that this is the best. Simple ease of use makes the game more approachable, and the new system for successes makes play faster and more balanced.
I do kinda miss the '80s flavor of decking, but the game needed a more modern makeover, and they did well. Also, I find that hacking is now easy enough that my players don't shy away from it, which is a very, very good thing.
I do kinda miss the '80s flavor of decking, but the game needed a more modern makeover, and they did well. Also, I find that hacking is now easy enough that my players don't shy away from it, which is a very, very good thing.
GlassJaw
Hero
D'karr said:
Overall, I like 4ed. I think they've done a good job at streamling the mechanics but still keeping the SR flavor.
The biggest change is that your TN is always 5. You roll a number of d6's equal to your stat + skill and count the number of "hits" - results that equal 5 or 6. It's a really easy mechanic to remember and plays well at the table.
Character creation is greatly improved. It is now a point system and much more balanced. Gear and cyberware rules have been cleaned up quite a bit too.
Conclusion: rules are easier to understand and mechanics are streamlined but still feels like SR - thumbs up from me.
I've been playing SR3 for a few years now (never played SR2) and SR4 doesn't do it for me. It's not an awful system, by any means - but it does away with a number of things I really like about SR3, and introduces a slew of poor design choices / things needing an errata or clarification. (I'm writing without access to the book, and it's been a while since I tried it and decided it wasn't for me, so I could be wrong on some of this - don't think I am, but...)
Here are the things I'm not especially crazy about:
1. The TN is always 5+ and penalties/bonuses subtract/add to the number of dice, not the
TN.
This changes the resolution mechanics drastically - in SR3, high enough TN mods would make certain tasks damn near impossible for both the starting runner and a veteran with 200 karma.
Under the SR4 model, a high-powered character (or in some cases, a specialized starting runner) can have so many dice even huge penalties like for shooting in complete darkness without any vision-enhancing cyber can be overcome.
2. The combat model has changed drastically. In SR3, getting shot/stabbed was more binary - you could usually avoid getting hit and hurt at all, if you worked at it, but if you did get hit, there'd be a good chance of a wound that'd be disabling. In SR4, you're a lot more likely to take damage, but it'll be less serious, generally speaking.
The damage track is also different - you don't take L, M or S wounds, you take boxes of damage. How many boxes you can take depends on your Body and Willpower, for Physical and Stun tracks, respectively. Every N boxes of damage gives you a -1 die penalty, IIRC. This can lead to some screwy results - a really tough troll that's almost dead has a bigger penalty to all his actions than a really scrawny human that's almost dead, because the troll's damage track is longer. Or, to look at it in another way, a human that's almost dead might have the same wound penalty as a troll that's pretty banged up, but still ok.
The use of Willpower for calculating the size of the Stun track can also lead to weird situations - magicians can now take more hits with gel rounds than street sams...
3. No Combat Pool. No Karma pool. (no control pool, no hacking pool either, for that matter)The two have been (sort of) rolled together into a new attribute called Edge, which allows for re-rolls and lets you make your rolls "explode" - you can use it a number of times equal to the attribute.
4. Technomancers - magicians that can hack/deck without the need for cyber or electronics - are now a common staple of the setting. As someone who likes the fact that in SR3 cyber and magic both can do some things really well but others not at all, and complement each other, I really dislike this development.
5. Everything is hack-able, because everything is now wireless, even things that don't make sense. (for security or common sense reasons) It does make it a lot easier for Deckers/Hackers to get in the thick of the action, but it feels (IMO) rather contrived and not well fleshed out.
6. Lots of arbitrary restrictions on attribute and skill levels during character creation, meant - I think - to curb the abuse of the system. (which lends itself highly to min-maxing otherwise) Equivalent to - for example - SR3 telling you not just that you can't get any skills at a level of more than 6, but that you can only get one skill at six, at chargen. Despite that, maximum skill and attribute caps are set extremely low by the system, which means that if you do specialize your character, you'll hit a limit in your specialty very soon out of chargen, and have nowhere to go in that area.
7. By default, using the rules as written, you only need 1 success to accomplish an unopposed task. The rules note that if that's too easy (and it is extremely easy to get at least 1 success in many cases) the GM can set a treshold higher than 1, but there are really no rules or guidelines for this.
All in all, I think it doesn't feel anything like the old SR, mechanically - and there have been significant changes to the flavor as well. Not my cup of tea.
Here are the things I'm not especially crazy about:
1. The TN is always 5+ and penalties/bonuses subtract/add to the number of dice, not the
TN.
This changes the resolution mechanics drastically - in SR3, high enough TN mods would make certain tasks damn near impossible for both the starting runner and a veteran with 200 karma.
Under the SR4 model, a high-powered character (or in some cases, a specialized starting runner) can have so many dice even huge penalties like for shooting in complete darkness without any vision-enhancing cyber can be overcome.
2. The combat model has changed drastically. In SR3, getting shot/stabbed was more binary - you could usually avoid getting hit and hurt at all, if you worked at it, but if you did get hit, there'd be a good chance of a wound that'd be disabling. In SR4, you're a lot more likely to take damage, but it'll be less serious, generally speaking.
The damage track is also different - you don't take L, M or S wounds, you take boxes of damage. How many boxes you can take depends on your Body and Willpower, for Physical and Stun tracks, respectively. Every N boxes of damage gives you a -1 die penalty, IIRC. This can lead to some screwy results - a really tough troll that's almost dead has a bigger penalty to all his actions than a really scrawny human that's almost dead, because the troll's damage track is longer. Or, to look at it in another way, a human that's almost dead might have the same wound penalty as a troll that's pretty banged up, but still ok.
The use of Willpower for calculating the size of the Stun track can also lead to weird situations - magicians can now take more hits with gel rounds than street sams...
3. No Combat Pool. No Karma pool. (no control pool, no hacking pool either, for that matter)The two have been (sort of) rolled together into a new attribute called Edge, which allows for re-rolls and lets you make your rolls "explode" - you can use it a number of times equal to the attribute.
4. Technomancers - magicians that can hack/deck without the need for cyber or electronics - are now a common staple of the setting. As someone who likes the fact that in SR3 cyber and magic both can do some things really well but others not at all, and complement each other, I really dislike this development.
5. Everything is hack-able, because everything is now wireless, even things that don't make sense. (for security or common sense reasons) It does make it a lot easier for Deckers/Hackers to get in the thick of the action, but it feels (IMO) rather contrived and not well fleshed out.
6. Lots of arbitrary restrictions on attribute and skill levels during character creation, meant - I think - to curb the abuse of the system. (which lends itself highly to min-maxing otherwise) Equivalent to - for example - SR3 telling you not just that you can't get any skills at a level of more than 6, but that you can only get one skill at six, at chargen. Despite that, maximum skill and attribute caps are set extremely low by the system, which means that if you do specialize your character, you'll hit a limit in your specialty very soon out of chargen, and have nowhere to go in that area.
7. By default, using the rules as written, you only need 1 success to accomplish an unopposed task. The rules note that if that's too easy (and it is extremely easy to get at least 1 success in many cases) the GM can set a treshold higher than 1, but there are really no rules or guidelines for this.
All in all, I think it doesn't feel anything like the old SR, mechanically - and there have been significant changes to the flavor as well. Not my cup of tea.
Last edited:
cignus_pfaccari
First Post
I haven't played SR4 yet, but it looks relatively decent. I do sort of miss the rampant target number manipulation I used to engage in, but it looks more balanced. Also, I suspect that characters will be more capable in more skills now.
Brad
Brad
Mortellan
Explorer
Agreed. The dice subtraction/addition is definitely better than SR3. For example a beginning character with the right cyberware and pistol skill will never miss a shot in SR3, and that's before karma! The only thing to offset it is high armor values. Our games became this massive RPG of one shot kills or unstoppable tanks. By losing dice it doesn't matter if the character has a dozen dice or one, it's still a 1 in 3 chance to succeed with the difference in SR4 being the defense roll which can eliminate some of the auto-hits SR3 suffered, thus reducing the dependency on ultra high armor.
Ashrum the Black
Explorer
Hmm, I've played first and second edition SR extensivly, but dropped out around third edition and only played that system once. I suppose it really depends on what parts of the "flavor" of past editions are important to you. For me, I truely dislike the moves with the magic system to combine the Shaman and the Hermetic. Flavor and fluff wise it just doesn't do a thing beyond irritate me to no end that my "hermatic mage" now has the wise warrior totem ... I mean mentor spirit. Add in the fact that why this is changed from previous editions really isn't addressed within the main book and I'm just not pleased with it.
So fluff wise some of the changes are to me are truely irritating.
I've mentioned the hacking system has greatly changed as well. For the most part changes to the system to include wireless technology more make A LOT of sense. But then they just stop, and I'm left wondering why big bad Aztechnology decided to leave a wirelessly controlled lock on the door to their secret McGuffin. So examples, and some idea of how it all fits together with exisitng technology would have been a great use of space within the book.
I work in the tech field, and in a R&D lab I support there were machines over ten years old. In business, technology just doesn't change that quickly, and if the wires still exist to the maglock, why would I replace them? Besides, a wirelessly controlled lock would have to give any security designer fits. Give me a decent reason and some fluff to back it up, and I'd probably be a lot better at accepting it. But for now, I just grin and go with it.
As for the actaul mechanics you're still rolling a fist full of dice, and counting successes. All of which feels very SR. The modifiers feel a little more like WW now, but the flavor is still there. Mechanical silliness can definitly exist within the new system, such as the problems with a high body troll taking a good amount of damage but feeling okay, and having the human take the same damage and racking up the same dice pool mods but be close to death. I think the damage track system tended to work a little nicer to account for this, but no system is perfect.
The feel of SR is still there, combats are fast and brutal. Geaking the mage first is even more imporatant then ever. But some of the changes made just seem to rub this old time player the wrong way. I'm not changing them, because I'm not about to start trying to teach the new system to new players and then unteach them what I don't like.
My greatest praise of the system is the ease of the mechanics and the simplification of the system. Which is also my greates complaint.
Ex: Removing the concealibilty of gear and just using base numbers for styles of equipment is a simplification. But to my mind they are an over simplification. I'm left with some task just feeling way way to easy to do, and because everything is so simplified down, not a lot of wiggle room to deal with it. Without rewriting how the task is done from the ground up at least.
I'm hopeful that as the rest of the "core" books are released most of these issues will be addressed, and some of the granuality of the old systems will be added back in. After all, working fomr just the mainbook was lots of fun with the old editions, but it was limited until the other books were release. In the mean time the new system is very good at capturing the feel of old versions of shadowrun.
-Ashrum
Similar Threads
