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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5262542" data-attributes="member: 78116">I've actually allowed solo monsters to do this in my campaigns and the effect is pretty dramatic. Solos can save against daze, dominate, stun and unconscious conditions as if they were save ends. So if they get afflicted by one of these "until the end of X players" turn, it means they can save it at their normal bonus. If they fail it still ends as normal anyway.What this has resulted in is that PCs no longer bother loading up on non-save ends until end of next turn daze, dominate, stun and unconscious effects. They're now absolutely worse than a save ends power against solos, because they aren't modified by anything that affects saving throws (as the solos saving throw is from a power, not because they count as save ends effects in any way - despite being saveable). It also means that solos are very hard to permanently lock down just by throwing powers like destructive salutation at them round after round. Especially with a single immediate interrupt save, as they count the stun as save ends either way, so missing with destructive salutation is no longer superior to hitting with it. If they fail vs. the miss it only lasts until the wizards next turn anyway, but failing vs. the hit means it may last much longer.The result is solo battles that play much better, are more fun and don't end up being the PCs whacking on a defenseless creature for 3 rounds until it dies. I have been very tempted to use a "shake off" rule for non-save ends effects for a while - applied generally. This is because in my mind, save ends effects should be the be all and end all of effects. If it's not save ends, it shouldn't be anywhere near as good. Yet 4E too strongly rewards powers that are until the end of a creatures turn as compared to save ends, because there is very little you can do about them - with copious ways of saving a save ends effect (or strong bonuses for monsters).</blockquote>

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