Simple and elegant monk BAB fix

[comrade raoul]

Problems with monk unarmed base attack bonuses have been around since 3e was published. The dilemma is familiar: if a monk could stack base attack bonuses from other classes when attacking, then characters could take one level of monk
(already a front-loaded class) and get a very powerful favorable attack progression with unarmed attacks or monk weapons for the rest of their careers -- so unrestricted BAB stacking seems to invite abuses and be a very bad idea. On the other hand, the standard, PH route (preventing monks using base attack bonuses from other classes when making unarmed attacks at their favorable rate) is balanced, but it prevents monks who want to make use of their unarmed benefits from taking more than a couple of levels in other classes. Lots of resolutions have been proposed, but they've been clunky and unwieldy for the most part. Here's my version. I think it's balanced and clear -- and, most importantly, the monk's unarmed attack benefits are both still tied to his class level and stack simply with other classes. This accomodates multiclassed monks without opening the way to abuse:

a. Monks do not gain the single ability to make unarmed attacks at every -3 interval of their base attack bonus. Rather, by default, they make unarmed attacks in the same manner as any other attack, at the normal -5 interval.

b. Monks gain four new special abilities at the following rate, based on their monk level:
6th level: Martial arts mastery (2nd attack)
10th level: Martial arts mastery (3rd attack)
14th level: Martial arts mastery (4th attack)
18th level: Martial arts mastery (5th attack)

Martial arts mastery abilities apply when a monk makes multiple, iterative unarmed attacks or attacks with a monk weapon. Each ability applies to a particular attack in the sequence. The attack bonus of the given attack, and all attacks after it, are calculated as though the monk's base attack bonus for that attack were increased by +2. Thus, a 6th level monk with a base attack bonus of +4 treats his second attack (even though he wouldn't normally have a second attack) as though his base attack bonus were +6 -- that is, he makes a second attack with a +1 bonus, for a total attack sequence of +4/+1 (his first attack is unaffected).

This benefit is cumulative, so a 10th level monk has his second attack as if his BAB were increased by +2, and his third (and any later attacks, if he's multiclassed) as if it were increased by +4 -- for a single-classed monk, this means that his second attack is treated as though his base attack bonus were +9 (resulting in bonus of +4) and his third attack is treated as though his base attack bonus were +11 (resulting in a bonus of +1); the monk's total attack sequence is +7/+4/+1.

Apply martial arts mastery first, to the monk's normal, unmodified attack sequence: additional attacks at the monk's highest attack bonus (such as from flurry of blows) do not count when determining which attacks martial arts mastery applies to. Thus, a 10th level monk using flurry of blows with a kama of speed first modifies his attack sequence according to his martial arts mastery abilities, and then applies his two extra attacks, for an attack sequence of +5/+5/+5/+2/-1 (before applying other bonuses).

Note that all single-classed monks make unarmed attacks exactly as the standard monk in the Player's Handbook. The advantages of this system, however, become clear when considering multiclassed monks:

- A monk 6/rogue 5 has a base attack bonus of +7 and the martial arts mastery (2nd attack) ability. When making a full attack when fighting unarmed, he attacks at +7/+4.
- A monk 6/rogue 10 hase a base attack bonus of +11 and the martial arts mastery (2nd attack) ability. He attacks at +11/+8/+3.
- A monk 10/sorcerer 10 hase a base attack bonus of +12 and the martial arts mastery (3rd attack) ability. He attacks at +12/+9/+6/+1.
- A monk 6/fighter 10 has a base attack bonus of +14 and the martial arts mastery (2nd attack) ability. He attacks at +14/+11/+6/+1.
- A monk 16/fighter 4 has a base attack bonus of +16 and the martial arts mastery (4th attack) ability. He attacks at +16/+13/+10/+7/+2.

Note that while this system might seem complicated at first, once you're a little familiar with it, it's very quick and easy to use.

 

[ichabod]

Wouldn't it be simpler and more elegant to give them special abilities that drops the itterration penalty to -4 and then to -3? Say at 5th and 10th levels?

 

[Mike Sullivan]

Wouldn't it be simpler and more elegant to give them special abilities that drops the itterration penalty to -4 and then to -3? Say at 5th and 10th levels?

That doesn't give the exact same results as in the PHB for single-class monks, though. Also, I suspect it's unbalanced, though obviously only at high levels. After you got to Monk 10, wouldn't you just go Fighter or Barbarian afterwards?

....

checks the SRD

Nope, you'd wait 'til 12th level. Then you get 1d12 open-hand damage, and you don't miss any BAB for it. A Monk 12/Barbarian 8 would have +17/+14/+11/+8/+5/+2, under your system -- one more attack than a Monk 20, who'd have +15/+12/+9/+6/+3.

 

[comrade raoul]

That sounds pretty reasonable (although I'd wait 'till 7th level to give the monk the -4 iteration penalty, as that's the earliest point at which a single-classed monk could benefit). It's certainly simpler and more elegant than my system, and it has the additional aesthetic advantage of allowing multiclassed monks to make all of their attacks at the same interval (rather than having make the first few attacks at a -3 interval, and the last few at -5, as I have).

I've got two problems. First, I'd like a system that doesn't change single-classed monks at all: yours one does (slightly) -- it makes life a bit more difficult from monks between 6th and 9th level, who get their second attack one level later than normal, and have it at a slightly larger penalty than usual. Still, this isn't really a big deal.

What I'm more concerned about, though, is the extent to which it favors high-level multiclassed monk who have lots of levels in other classes. I'd prefer for monk levels to remain important for a character's unarmed attack rate at all levels (rather than to have the monk contribution "max out" at 10th level), and I think your system makes it too easy for some characters to get very good attack sequences (better than in my version), and I'd prefer for characters to have a number of monk levels before they can get five iterative attacks). Consider the attack sequences for some characters in your version:
(reduced attack intervals at 5th and 10th levels)
monk 10/rogue 10: +14/+11/+8/+5/+2
monk 8/rogue 12: +14/+10/+6/+2
monk 10/fighter 10: +17/+14/+11/+8/+5
monk 8/fighter 12: +18/+14/+10/+6/+2

against those of the same characters in mine:
(martial arts mastery abilities at 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels)
monk 10 /rogue 10: +14/+11/+8/+3
monk 8/rogue 12: +14/+11/+6/+1
monk 10/fighter 10: +17/+14/+11/+6/+1
monk 8/fighter 12: +18/+15/+10/+5

note that I posted before seeing Mike Sullivan's post, which makes many of the same points I made.

 

[ichabod]

I don't see the big problem. As far as just taking barbarian or fighter, it depends on what you want. If you want to be a pure martial arts master, yes. But that makes some sense to me. If you want to go the mystical route (immunity to poison, free dimension door, tongues, ethereal jaunt, and death attack), no. I don't see that monk 10/fighter 10 is that unbalanced, seing as it only give a +2 to attacks over monk 20, who is doing twice as much damage by that point. And the guy has paid 10 levels for it, which I think is a fair price to pay.

It just seems to me that the idea was to make it easier to multiclass the monk without losing UAB, and without making it easier to get the UAB. 10 levels doesn't seem easy to me, and if you have to take more than 10 levels in monk, you are starting to significantly limit the utility of multiclassing.

 

[comrade raoul]

There's one other, conceptual reason why I'd stick with the original system. I think favorable unarmed attack rates (along with unarmed damage, and so forth) should be a unique property of the monk class -- it represents continuation of the monk's unique fighting style. But in a system in which the character always makes unarmed attacks at a -3 iteration after 10th level, a level of, say, cleric or rogue is just as good as a level of monk when determining the character's unarmed attack rate, and a level of fighter is clearly better. With the original system, a monk's unarmed attack sequence gets increasingly favorable (though with somewhat diminishing returns) throughout his advancement (up to 18th level, at least), rather than "topping out" after 10 levels.

You're right to say that 10 levels is a significant investment, and should be rewarded, but I think the system above handles that just fine. You'll note that, say, a monk 10/rogue 10 (who attacks at +14/+11/+8/+3) has very significant advantages in unarmed combat over a pure rogue 20 (who attacks at +15/+10/+5).

 

[FireLance]

Funnily enough, I had more or less the same idea (see here).

Great minds think alike, eh?

 

[comrade raoul]

Yeah, you sure did -- sorry for not noticing that or giving you credit.

 

[Thain]

Not to threadjack here, but... I've never understood what the problem is with "characters (who) take one level of monk .... and get a very powerful favorable attack progression with unarmed attacks or monk weapons for the rest of their careers..."

Sean K. Reynolds, did an excellent job of pointing out exactly Why Monk BAB Should Stack With Other Class BAB.

In a nut shell, if a single-classed Monk is compared with a multiclassed Monk/Fighter, the monk/fighter does have a higher BAB, more attacks, and even bonus fighter feats... but, the monk does more damage, has better AC, up to 17 monk powers, and the best saves in the game...

See also his Opions on Classes article in Misc.:

Monk base attack bonus should stack with the base attack bonus from other classes for the purpose of her unarmed attack rate. It just doesn't make sense to me that a monk who takes some levels in fighter can't add her fighter BAB to her monk BAB and use it to get more attacks per round. Your BAB reflects your knowledge of fighting and fighting skill, and just because you spend some time fighting with a sword doesn't mean you can't apply the knowledge of "hit on the head, it hurts more" to when you punch someone. A wizard class' BAB adds to a fighter class' BAB, so the fighter class (and all other classes) should add to the monk BAB. It's just weird that they don't stack, and particularly hoses the monk that takes a few levels of fighter. They should still be limited to the mnk20's 5 attacks per round, though.

Well, that my 20 ¥

 

[Mike Sullivan]

I don't see the big problem. As far as just taking barbarian or fighter, it depends on what you want. If you want to be a pure martial arts master, yes. But that makes some sense to me. If you want to go the mystical route (immunity to poison, free dimension door, tongues, ethereal jaunt, and death attack), no. I don't see that monk 10/fighter 10 is that unbalanced, seing as it only give a +2 to attacks over monk 20, who is doing twice as much damage by that point. And the guy has paid 10 levels for it, which I think is a fair price to pay.

Well, at Monk 12/Fighter 8, you get 1d12 open-hand damage, and the dimension door, and still get that +2 to hit -- and one more iterative attack. (Also, more hit points, more feats, blah-blah-blah).

Also, let's note the difference between having a 1d20 base damage die vs a 1d10 base damage die, and "doing twice as much damage." I think it pretty much goes without saying that a 20th level character is not going to be using their unmodified base damage die.

That said, I agree you have a point. Obviously, the favorable attack rate shouldn't apply except unarmed or with monk weapons.