Mannahnin
Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Hey, Diogenes!
AD&D 1E Snarf's Challenge: Was it Possible to Play 1e RAW? SHARE YOUR STORIES!
- Thread starter Snarf Zagyg
- Start date
quantumthor
Villager
Aside from contradictions - e.g. magic armour encumbrance, or the two sets of unarmed combat rules that are both awful - the biggest issue to RAW is the training and monthly expenditure rules. A Thief won't be able to level up at 1200XP because they won't have enough gold to do so. It looks like a rule introduced to drain the players of cash when the miliey had developed that he forgot to consider re impact on low level characters.
Half-Elf bard I don't see as a RAW issue, just F/TH multiclass that can switch with the appropriate Bard level requirements for Fighter and Thief.
The duel to level up rules for Monks and Druids would be interesting to see properly applied. Although RAW no Monk could ever survive long enough to see a duel anyway.
Half-Elf bard I don't see as a RAW issue, just F/TH multiclass that can switch with the appropriate Bard level requirements for Fighter and Thief.
The duel to level up rules for Monks and Druids would be interesting to see properly applied. Although RAW no Monk could ever survive long enough to see a duel anyway.
quantumthor
Villager
"EXCEPT you can fire three missile attacks (three times the attack rate)" I don't think that three times the rate isn't meant to be the same as three attacks.A recent discussion had me thinking about a few truisms that I often discuss when I do my deep dives into D&D history.
If you ask four grognards how they played 1e, you'll get seven different stories.
1e was a modular and DIY system- rules varied from "rules almost everyone played with" (fighters get d10 hit points) to "rules very few people played with" (Weapon v. AC, Item Saving Throws) to "things that weren't rules, but were common misunderstandings that people used" (didn't die until -10) to "you're on your own, pretty much" (initiative).
And finally...
No one played 1e RAW with all the rules.
On further reflection, and with a good night's sleep, I realized that one of my responses in the other thread about how no one played 1e RAW with all the rules might have been, if not overly harsh, certainly not in keeping with the spirit of generosity toward all* that I try to practice, if not always successfully.
*Bards and soulless, dead-eyed elves are excluded from this offer.
So I thought I'd re-visit the topic in the only way I know how to- with words. Way too many words. It's been a minute since my last Snarfticle (I WILL MAKE FETCH HAPPEN!), and I wanted to explore this topic, fully and with generosity-
Is it possible to play 1e (AD&D) RAW with all the rules?
In addition, I wanted to explore the similar (but not the same) topic-
Has anyone ever actually played a 1e campaign with all the rules?
With those questions in mind, let's do this thing!
1. Definitions and exclusions I am using that you will probably ignore.
I want to start by being absolutely, 100% clear about what I am talking about. There are a lot of retroclones (see, e.g., OSRIC) that present a "cleaned up" version of 1e. That doesn't count. In addition, the rules for AD&D were revised and cleaned up in 2e ... but that's 2e. I'm discussing Gygaxian AD&D- 1e. So for purposes of this discussion, we are looking at the core rulebooks (the PHB and the DMG, and, to the extent necessary, the MM) for 1e. That's it. Just the RAW for 1e as presented in the core rulebooks.
I am also not trying to play a game of "gotcha" with the rules - even though Gygax seemed to write the rules with this in mind. So I am purposefully excluding three separate categories of rules that present their own problems.
A. Scrivener's errors/mere typos. Famously, the monk in the PHB attacks as a thief but in the DMG the monk attacks as a cleric. The PHB entry was an error; I am not going to say that playing the RAW as impossible because of mere mistakes in the text.
B. Weird edge cases. I've spent a long time talking about weird inconsistencies in the rules, such as the half-elf "pre-bard" allowance. As much as I love those (AND I DO! NO NIT WILL REMAIN UNPICKED!), I'd like to concentrate on the more serious rules issues.
C. Appendices. That's right- I am always looking to get rid of Bards. I am not going to deal with bards or psionics. I mean ... psionics alone would make this essay (even more) unwieldy. If it's in an appendix, or expressly stated as optional, it doesn't count.
Good? I hope so.
2. Tell us your stories! Or ... tell me I'm an idiot full of wrongonium?
More than anything else, I am hoping that this thread will cause people to regale us, in the comments, of how they tried to use a rule in 1e and then ... dropped it. Preferably because it was really annoying to use. But do you know what I would love?
If someone, anyone, could tell me about a table they played at where all the rules were used, and how it went. I don't think it happened (as I explain in the next section), but ... I could be wrong. I haven't been to your table ... because if I was, I'd slap those dice out of your hand. Ahem. Just kidding. No, what I mean is that I'd love to hear about how someone accomplished something that I think is impossible. I think it's inconceivable, and yet ...
View attachment 418594
3. Cool story, bruh. So, why didn't anyone play 1e with all the RAW?
I've done numerous deep dives into 1e rules before, and I am not going to list all the issues- instead, I'll just provide a sampling of the different rules and why they weren't often followed at many tables.
A. Initiative.
How does initiative work in 1e? THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION! First, roll to see if either side is surprised (d6, 1 or 2 indicates surprise, unless it doesn't, for example, if there is a ranger, or if there is a modifier that means someone doesn't use a d6, in which case ... uh, maybe convert to percentiles?). If there is surprise, the result of the d6 roll (or maybe other roll, but you'll have to re-convert it you converted to percentiles) is the number of segments of surprise. Unless both sides are surprised, in which case the side that is "more surprised" (higher roll) is surprised by the net number of segments that you learn from subtracting the lower roll from the higher roll.
EXCEPT if you have a dexterity modifier, your PC will add or subtract the modifier from the segments of surprise. But bonuses only apply when you are in light gear. Penalties always apply. Once we get all that out of the way, we can proceed to the "surprise" part of the combat.
EXCEPT if you have a crossbow of speed, you can fire it on the second segment that you are surprised if you are surprised for two segments or more.
Okay, now that this is out of the way, what can you do? Well, for every segment of surprise, you can make a full round of melee attacks. Or you can make a full round of missile attacks.
EXCEPT you can fire three missile attacks (three times the attack rate) if you have the missile weapon readied during the first segment of surprise. You can also move or cast a one-segment spell.
EXCEPT you might not be able to attack due to a reaction penalty.
You know what? I haven't even gotten to the ACTUAL initiative, and I'm not going to. Because NO ONE I KNOW EVER DID THE FULL INITIATIVE. If you did, let me know how it went for you. I don't even want to get into encounter distance. UGH.
B. So Many Fiddly Combat Rules.
Look, the common refrain here is, "Did you use Weapon v. AC values?" Well, did you punk? Feeling lucky using that Bo Stick against Plate and Shield? But some people did. Some people used it. And used the speed factor for the weapons. And the space required for the weapons (important for marching order!). But that was just the beginning of the bizarre and overcomplicated rules that reminded you of Gygax's wargaming roots. There were rules for everything.
Flank attacks negated shield bonuses. Rear flank attacks negated shield and dexterity bonuses. Rear attacks negated shield and dex bonuses and were +2. Stunned, prone, or motionless? It's the same as a rear attack, but at +4. Magically sleeping or held? If there is combat going on, then auto hit, max damage, and 2x the attacks. If no combat, then auto-slain. Unless normally sleeping, in which case roll on the assassin's table.
Opponent leaving melee? Free attack routine against them as if they were stunned.
Here's a good one- are you shooting a missile weapon into a melee combat, you don't get to select the target. Each participant in the melee has a chance of being the target based upon the numbers involved and their size (including your allies).
If you have a weapon with a very low speed factor, you might get multiple attacks before the other person is allowed to strike. Cool, huh? Sometimes you get three attacks (two prior, one simultaneous).
How about the rules for helms, and targeting the head? Or the sudden switch to percentiles for pummeling, grappling, and overbearing? Of course, if you try to do that against someone with a weapon, they get to roll to hit to fend off the attempt, and then get to attack you for real.
I could keep going as I am just scratching the surface ... but you get the idea.
C. System Shock Shock Shock Shock.
I don't want to go to far down the system shock rabbit hole, but ... there were a lot of things that could age you in AD&D. For example, being the recipient of a Haste spell (or even drinking the potion) would age you one year. And every single time you magically aged, you had to roll on the system shock table to see if you lived. Every. single. time.
But wait, it's better. Let's say the party's magic user cast polymorph other on you. You had to roll a system shock to survive being polymorphed, and again when you returned to normal. Same with petrification- if a Medusa got you, that's one system shock when you were petrified, and then? Another when you were brought back.
And I haven't even mentioned the funniest one. RESURRECTION.
Casting resurrection would age the caster three years, and the caster would have to make a system shock roll to survive.
In addition, the person being resurrected had to make a roll on the resurrection survival table- fail that, and they were forever dead.
That's right- casting resurrection by the RAW meant that it was possible for the caster to die and the recipient to be forever dead. Unless the recipient was an elf or half-orc, because then under the RAW, it never happened. Elves and half-orcs could not be raised or resurrected (other than through a rod of resurrection).
D. Spells!
Again, I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole on this one, but to make this as simple as possible I find one question to be always illuminating-
Why were the Power Word spells so valuable?
If you know the answer to that, you know the answer to the RAW question. The "Power Word" spells (Stun, Blind, Kill) don't look that impressive considering the level (7th, 8th, 9th) ... but they share one thing in common. They take one segment to cast. Those casting times for spells really matter because in 1e, most combat spells outside of the Power Words and Magic Missile take significant time to cast (3-9 segments), meaning that the spellcasting takes place at the end of the combat round, and you commit to it at the beginning, and if you're hit during the round, you use up the spell and there is no effect.
In addition, the DMG explicitly informs you that if a spell is cast during combat, the caster must remain motionless (+4 to attack, no dexterity or shield bonus) and that intelligent opponents will specifically target the caster if able to do so. Remember how you played, and the contrast the DMG's warning that because spellcasting during combat is so difficult most caster will instead use devices to cast spells (wands, etc.).
And don't get me started on how you acquire spells and the time it takes to get spells back after they've been cast.
E. Item Saving Throws
I will just mention this in passing, but either you used it or you didn't. I wrote about the topic here-
But the gist of the issue is this- while some people might have been aware that their items might not survive the friendly fire of the magic user's poorly-considered fireball (LEARN HOW TO CALCULATE VOLUME CORRECTLY!), they probably didn't realize that all sorts of things would be breakin' their stuff.
F. Distance?
There are so many other weird peculiarities I could mention, but I thought I'd end with one of my favorite bizarre features of 1e. Distances. If you look back at 1e, you can see that almost all the distances are written out in ... inches. So the S / M / L range of a long bow (not composite) is 7", 14", 21".
WHAT IS THIS? A GAME FOR ANTS?????
No. It was based on miniatures. So 1" was 10' (one inch = ten feet).
Except, of course, it wasn't that easy. That is what it meant indoors. If you were outside, 1" was 10 yards. Three times as much.
Going back to the bow, short range indoors was 70 feet, and short range outdoors was 70 yards.
And this applied to spells as well. So the spell Bless has a Range of 6", and an Area of Effect of 5" x 5".
Except that spell ranges do the conversion, and area of effect is always measure by the indoor amount. BECAUSE REASONS. Um, because the PHB says so.
So indoors, Bless has a range of 60' and an AOE of 50' x 50'. And outdoors, it has a range of 180' and an AOE of 50' x 50'.
So later, in the description for the spell fireball, you learn that it has an AOE of 2" radius sphere, which remains unchanged regardless of where you cast it. It has a volume of 33,510.32 cubic feet.
But in the text it states ...
[The area which is covered by the fireball is a total volume of roughly 33,000 cubic feet (or yards)].
And with that, I officially give up. I am beaten.
4. Conclusion?
There's not really a conclusion to this. I could keep listing more rules (training rules that require rating the roleplaying of characters, morale rules, the special "nerfing the thief really hard" rules in the DMG, etc.) but I hope the above example should be illustrative. What I'd really like to hear about is how some people chose to try to play the RAW, and how they ended up abandoning that quest.
Or, you know, how someone actually did it. Not just all the fiddly combat rules, but all the small weirdsies- the player expenses. The training. The advancement by combat. The diseases. All of it. How did it work? What was it like to go Full Gygax?*
*In fairness, Gygax never played the RAW.
....Snarf out.
Remember in melee surprise you attack at ten times the rates - 1 attack per segment.
Three time rate of fire means -
Bow rate of fire 2 per round
Three times the rate is 6 per round
If you get 3 segments surprise 0.3 × 6 =1.8
You can loose a couple of arrows.
Marc17
Adventurer
One of the things I remember, while reading the rules for moving past or through other characters or monsters, it turned out there were none. There is the implied rule of not being able to occupy the same space as another due to assumption you are using miniatures, but no description of base sizes or space taken up. Even for movement, it pretty much just says on your characters action, they can move up to their movement. It could be interpreted as you could just pick up your miniature and place it anywhere within that range, even discarding ideas of teleporting through walls or other map objects. Sort of in the procedural wargamer style way combat worked with 1 minute combat rounds, that even made some sort of sense. What there was instead that I never even considered, were rules for a maximum number of attacks that any target could be affected by.
Meanwhile, we know from descriptions of play from Gary's game, that in a 10 foot corridor, the party would have three short sword and board fighters in front to block attackers from getting through, then people with spears behind them to attack above them, then with casters in a protected spot behind that.
Meanwhile, we know from descriptions of play from Gary's game, that in a 10 foot corridor, the party would have three short sword and board fighters in front to block attackers from getting through, then people with spears behind them to attack above them, then with casters in a protected spot behind that.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
The biggest hole in the duel-to-advance rule as written is this: what if there's nobody to duel? The rules are quite specific that you can't advance without defeating or killing the person you're replacing; so if that person has already died, or retired, or is nowhere to be found, you're hosed.
A simple fix that I houseruled in is to add the phrase "or prove a vacancy exists" to the rule, such that if the position is vacant you can just step in to it and carry on.
Mannahnin
Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
There are also examples of limited facing space, marching order and formation in the DMG. These are discussed along with scale on page 10 under Use of Miniature Figures, and shown at work in the example of play on page 97.
The Players Handbook tells us on page 104 that "Participants in a melee can opt to attack, parry, fall back, or flee." It doesn't give you any option to disengage and advance. The DMG also implies that once you're engaged in melee (within 1", ten feet in scale distance) of the enemy, the only way to disengage is to turn and flee. The option of a half-speed Fighting Withdrawal facing the enemy was not detailed yet, being introduced in B/X in 1981.
Of course, the DMG also talks in places about a melee being a general mix where attacks are allocated randomly(!) to foes rather than targets being individually chosen. The example of combat of course directly contradicts this.
Mannahnin
Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
The Druid rules explicitly cover this on page 21 of the PH:
The Assassin rules don't specify that you don't need to kill the local Guildmaster Assassin to reach 14th level if there IS no local 14th level Guildmaster Assassin, or 15th and the Grandfather, but it's certainly easy to infer that the same idea applies.
With Monks it's pretty darn explicit that there are always three 8th level Masters of Dragons (White, Green, and Red) at any one time, and 1 each of the higher level Masters (9th through 17th) in the world at any given time. It says that once you would normally level up to a given level you get the advance, but it's temporary until you seek out and fight the next higher master in unarmed single combat (and without magic items), at which point the loser drops back to the lower level. Whether this stricture still applies if the next-highest master happens to be dead is up the DM, it seems.
Marc17
Adventurer
True, it has to be a legal move, but my reading of it was that so long as you were within 1" of any member of the melee you were currently involved in, it was good. I no doubt had missed the PHB which seems to indicate that no movement was allowed once in melee. Of course, that brings up flanking issues most likely. This then goes with my post further upthread, which states just as we started to think we had a grasp on the rules, some corner case would show up in some other part of the rules we'd have to fit in.
Mannahnin
Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Yeah, the rules for melee and movement are so vague in so many ways that they really require a group or at least each DM to codify and clarify their own understanding so they can be played.
Doctor Futurity
Legend
Two comments: I used a lot of the rules listed but initiative broke me. We regularly consulted the B/X rules when the PHB or DMG left us baffled, so I know for sure all the initiative rules I used came from B/X until AD&D 2E arrived to save the day.
Second, in 1989 I went to a convention and played in a weekend long AD&D 1E game run by a crusty old grognard DM (for the time, he was probably mid thirties to my 18 at the time) who professed to run the game by the book. It was like I'd just walked out of Plato's Cave, the experience was so unnervingly similar to my time as a DM and player, and yet was completely alien to me! It was fascinating, and to this day I still can't say for sure if it really was RAW.
Second, in 1989 I went to a convention and played in a weekend long AD&D 1E game run by a crusty old grognard DM (for the time, he was probably mid thirties to my 18 at the time) who professed to run the game by the book. It was like I'd just walked out of Plato's Cave, the experience was so unnervingly similar to my time as a DM and player, and yet was completely alien to me! It was fascinating, and to this day I still can't say for sure if it really was RAW.
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