sniff sniff...Do I smell 2nd edition mistakes?

[Markn]

What actually disappoints me the most is how much 3/3.5 is starting to smack of 2nd edition. The promise of lessons learned from past editions does not seem to be evident.

There are so many mistakes that Wotc is making that were supposedly either resolved or improved upon in the new edition. As far as the game itself goes it has improved a great deal but the mistakes that I am talking about are the ones that are created with "add on books" besides the core rule books. The core books get a long look to make sure everything is ok, they have pretty good editing, stat blocks are right for the most part and so on. All 3 of the core books share a similar vision in what it brings to the game and thus a lot of consistency. When 3E was first coming out, there were promises of fewer products per month but at a higher quality. They had supposedly learned their lessons from 2nd edition about power creep, lack of consitency and too many products saturates the market. I for one have not seen an improvment in these areas.

The complete series and the races series are some of the poorest products they are releasing and IMHO the Complete X Handbook were far superior products. Don't get me wrong, they are pretty cool and allow for more options but the mistakes are horrendous. Stat blocks are quite often wrong, power creep exists with each new product, they don't share the same vision as the designers (mostly because they have left the company and therein lies part of the problem), unbalanced spells, spells at the wrong level and so on. I guess I was just hoping for better. Will this stop me from buying the books? Not likely, I am sucker for buying books and I do enjoy reading them immensely. Am I very critical in what exists in those books and am I concerned with how it will affect my game? You bet. As is a DM's perogative I can easily say what is and what isn't allowed. But I do expect better from Wotc for the money I put down on their books.

Has anyone else noticed this trend? Do you feel the same?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

You sound like me after buying the 3.0 splatbooks.

It is not so much that WotC is repeating the mistakes of the past as succumbing to the economic pressures that are the norm of the industry. While WotC has really raised the bar when it comes to core books, it is the core books that are the noteworthy exception.

Godawful editing and playtesting at triple the core price per page is normal for supplements in the RPG market.

The Complete series is above average in quality compared to the industry norms. One would hope so, as this is their second crack at the same material. Their 3.0 kin were so crappy IMO that I hated even accidentally looking at their covers.

 

[Henry]

When they start releasing ten products a month about 6 different settings, then I'll start agreeing with you. The good news is that whatever I DON'T want to buy, I don't have to to get some esoteric piece of info from it for a product I DO own.

 

[Nail]

...Their 3.0 kin were so crappy IMO that I hated even accidentally looking at their covers.

LOL!

For many of them, I agree. Still there was some useable material, even in (shudder) Sword and Fist.




I can't believe I just wrote that.

 

[Markn]

Ridley's Cohort,

Good points...The marketing machine does require a mass production of products to make a company stay afloat. I suppose if I were Wotc I would ask myself what I could do to improve the product and still make it cost as litltle as possible and thus make the most amount of profit possible. If you were to ask consumers there would be things that 9 out of 10 people would mention they would like to see improved and then there would be things that each person would have a different taste for. If 9 out of 10 ask for something I should damn well listen. Things in this category would include editing and layout. How hard is it to find a good editor and stick with him/her. Not too difficult. Simple thing, yet highly effective. Hell, even the editor could be given the game knowledge to check stat blocks.

As for what would I change if I was putting out the books. I think I'd try a different angle. Rather than focusing on 1-2 races/classes per book why not focus on a mechanic in the book instead. Release a book on feats and skills. Release a book on alternate player races or additional races. Release a book on classes and new optional classes. I think this approach could have a significant improvement on limiting power creep and strongly increase consistency amongst classes and races. Why, you ask? Simple. One author covers the entire subject and it is done all at once rather than multiple authors over 1-2 years. One author will view all the feats in the same light and he is able to balance that aspect of the game. If you do this for each book then every thing is equal. By the time you have covered all the aspects of the game there will be improvements since the first book. You release a new version of the book with updated material and new info much in the same way that the 3.5 books update the 3.0 ones.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

For many of them, I agree. Still there was some useable material, even in (shudder) Sword and Fist.

Even I would go so far as to say there was significant usuable material in every book.

But with roughly half the material borderline unplayable out of the box, I kept wondering why I was paying so much money for what amounted to a grabbag of interesting ideas of suspect execution. In the age of the internet and OGL, there are many cheaper sources of interesting ideas that need reworking.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

I'm wondering if they'll decide to go with the bazillion different worlds, but make them all balanced within each other's context. So there would be no problem playing a Warforged in the Forgotten Realms or whatever.

That way they could do all the splatbooks for all the different worlds but they wouldn't worry about someone not buying products for a given line because it wasn't set in the right campaign.

 

[francisca]

It is not so much that WotC is repeating the mistakes of the past as succumbing to the economic pressures that are the norm of the industry.

Or maybe responding to market demand? I mean, people by he splat books, right? I could live happily ever after without another new feat or PrC, but even I recognize that some gamers want them. People want the splatbooks, want the settings, or Wizards is simply taking advantage of the obsessive compulsive/completist personality of a lot of gamers. Or some of both.

 

[Crothian]

people want the books. Look on the boards and see the threads that talk about them. Its not as much as it used to be since there are just so many books to discuss, but the Complete books have been discusses to near death in rules. I always thought it was better to have too many books, then too few.

 

[broghammerj]

When they start releasing ten products a month about 6 different settings, then I'll start agreeing with you. The good news is that whatever I DON'T want to buy, I don't have to to get some esoteric piece of info from it for a product I DO own.

While agree with you that the rampant cross pollination of the old edition is something I won't miss, there does seems to be a lot of repetition with this edition. Material (ie feats, spells, etc) are reprinted in multiple sources. This is good that you don't have to buy another book to make sense of the one already own. However, I do get annoyed by paying for wasted pages in a book. Sort of makes me feel like taxes. My paycheck gets taxed, I pay sales tax with that same money, my relatives will be taxed on that money when I die, etc.

I liked the 2e splatbooks and thought they were well done. The 3e books looked to be of poor quality and seemed dumb down so I didn't buy any. I would have been really mad to have bought them and then had the 3.5 character books come out. Similar to how I felt screwed when I bought up Alternity a month before it was canceled.

I really do think that WOTC is making the same mistake as before. Your point is well taken that they don't have a multitude of settings. What are they going to do when they run out of race/character books? The environment series is a new refreshing idea although I haven't bought one to grade the quality. The old 2e had the OPTION of kits. This edition seems to have a power creep inherently built into it with feats and prestige classes. I'm not sure where they're going, but I'm worried quality may take a dive.

I've always proposed an annual for WOTC. Every year you could buy a hard cover book with a compilation of all the WOTC feats, spells, and prestige classes put into one book so I don't have to keep cross referencing different material. In that case, I wouldn't mind being double taxed.