D&D General Species need more than spells (and why Tieflings have been shafted since 5e released)

[Tonguez]

I can understand this idea.

But ain't no way that "humans are naturally predispositioned to save the troubled locals by being their natural leaders" is going to play out well. It's just not. It's asking for so much trouble.

Why? It fits the fiction where the human protagonist finds the middle way to gain support of both the Orcs and the Elfs against the Big Bad. The Green Men and Red Men of Mars
Aragorn even gets to command Undead

 

[Horwath]

Because that is 5e's answer to everything.

I really hate this.

Yet I see almost no one complaining about how nearly every character in 5e is actually a spellcaster, as in they literally actually do have the ability to cast what are explicitly and mechanically spells. I do see occasional, mild grumbles that spellcasting is too common.

we need to return to 3.5e differentiation of

1. Spells
2. Spell-like ability
3. Supernatural ability
4. Extraordinary ability

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I really hate this.

we need to return to 3.5e differentiation of

1. Spells
2. Spell-like ability
3. Supernatural ability
4. Extraordinary ability

This alone would not address the issue. I mean, it might help, but keep in mind that half of those things are still spells anyway, either directly or indirectly. So we would have just ended up with half these "spells" instead being "spell-like abilities", which are just spells with more steps.

For me, I think we just need to have a design which understands that bespoke abilities are not bad in and of themselves. That doesn't mean we should let them proliferate without use. We shouldn't. They should be for a purpose. But the way the 5e design team treats them, you'd think they actively wanted to make EVERYTHING a literal actual spell, even things that aren't even magical at all, get turned into spells. I just...I don't get it.

Doubly so when "everyone is a spellcaster" has been a major, major complaint about game design in the past.

But, more importantly, the way you make species design better is not (strictly speaking) by enforcing the above categories. It's by making it so that each species has active abilities that make them distinct. Consider that elves have had the whole "trance instead of sleep" thing for ages, but it never comes up as the thing folks love about elves. That's a really really big clue! Passive abilities have their place, and shouldn't be totally excised any more than bespoke abilities should. But passive abilities aren't what makes something cool, fun, or memorable. Active abilities are what do that.

"High Elves" (I still prefer the term "Eladrin") have a teleport. Dragonborn have a breath attack. Tieflings have Hellish Rebuke (which should not be a spell, sorry Warlocks, it just shouldn't). Orcs have their blood rage. Etc. Tap into that sort of stuff, and you'll have people beating a path to your door. Because you've made it so that each species feels different to play, because they actually DO different things, rather than merely having slightly different numbers.

 

[Corinnguard]

The ability of the 5.5e Dragonborn to switch their breath weapon's area of effect from a cone to a line and vice versa isn't an entirely a new thing in D&D. Back in 3.5, Dragons could pick up a metabreath feat known as Shape Breath (3.5 Draconomicon, pg. 73).

Shape Breath [Metabreath]
You can make the area of your breath weapon a cone or a line as you see fit.
Prerequisites: Con 13, breath weapon, size Small or Larger.
Benefit: If you have a line-shaped breath weapon, you can opt to shape it into a cone. Likewise, if you have a cone-shaped breath weapon, you can shape it into a line.
When you use this feat, add +1 to the number of rounds you must wait before using your breath weapon again.
Normal: Without this feat, the shape of your breath weapon is fixed.

Dragons in 3.5 had other Metabreath feats besides this one.
The 5e or 5.5e Dragonborn could have something like a 5e/5.5e version of these feats in order to alter one or more aspects of their breath weapon as they level up and gain more uses of it.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding it but like you succeed at your stealth check so you give someone advantage on their stealth roll, except that stealth check has already been made so kind of doesn't matter until next time. If someone Fireballs the party you are giving someone advantage the next time they face a Dex save not the current Fireball since everybody is rolling for that at the same time right?

oh, no, it can be an instantaneous thing too, if you both make the stealth roll or fireball save at approximately the same time you can then apply that advantage to whoever else made the check to give them a second chance even if like the stealth roll, they technically went before you (or have the sense to put your human earlier in the attempt chain), and like you say, you can bank it for the next time, cause if a creature has a way to make you make a check once it’s probably going to happen again, plus, it applies to basic attack rolls which people make all the time.

I did consider if it ought to be a reaction rather than BA though...

edit: maybe it could have a minute grace period after you make your check so you don't need to lock in who needs your help if you're not using it immediately.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Because that is 5e's answer to everything.

Yet I see almost no one complaining about how nearly every character in 5e is actually a spellcaster, as in they literally actually do have the ability to cast what are explicitly and mechanically spells. I do see occasional, mild grumbles that spellcasting is too common.

Let me see if I have this correct. Your position is that you rarely see people complain that nearly every character in 5e is a spellcaster? I ask because to me it seems to be well within the top half-dozen most commonly voiced complaints about the edition.

 

[Stormonu]

Being a natural leader isn't the same as being a hero. The bandits troubling those locals villagers also have a leader. And it's not like being a natural leader even means you will always be the one(s) in charge, even IRL there are plenty of people in charge of people who are objectively better leaders then they are. And of course there's the whole this feature is for PCs not every human commoner you ever meet.

Also worth noting that Hobgoblins have already been published with a leader type of mechanics and I don't remember any trouble.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding it but like you succeed at your stealth check so you give someone advantage on their stealth roll, except that stealth check has already been made so kind of doesn't matter until next time. If someone Fireballs the party you are giving someone advantage the next time they face a Dex save not the current Fireball since everybody is rolling for that at the same time right?

It's powerful if you're using "go around the table" rather than "everyone at the same time" table rules. i.e., on the Stealth example, the human player is the first to roll (and result), then uses LBE for the next person at the table who rolls. Similar for the save - human player rolls first, then grants LBE to the next player who rolls their save against the fireball. If everyone is throwing dice at the same time, this doesn't come into play.

<Edit: @CreamCloud0 beat me to the reply, looks like he is assuming "go around the table" table rules>

 

[Sorinth]

oh, no, it can be an instantaneous thing too, if you both make the stealth roll or fireball save at approximately the same time you can then apply that advantage to whoever else made the check to give them a second chance even if like the stealth roll, they technically went before you (or have the sense to put your human earlier in the attempt chain), and like you say, you can bank it for the next time, cause if a creature has a way to make you make a check once it’s probably going to happen again, plus, it applies to basic attack rolls which people make all the time.

I did consider if it ought to be a reaction rather than BA though...

edit: maybe it could have a minute grace period after you make your check so you don't need to lock in who needs your help if you're not using it immediately.

Makes it more powerful if it can be at the same time but seems like it's ripe for problems. Like what happens if the fireball hits a group with 2+ humans. If one human passes can they then retroactively give advantage to a human who failed turning that failure into a success which then allows giving someone else a retroactive advantage roll.

Not sure if you are looking for constructive criticism or whether this was more just a way of showing the direction to take. I do very much like the direction, the actual implementation is a bit hit/miss, like the bookeeping seems bad, did I ever use my advantage on that random knowledge check Bob the Human succeed at 5 sessisons ago? And there's the potential "abuse" of ok before we go into the dungeon let's play a quick game of hide and seek, the rest of you watch Bob the Human find me so that you'll have advantage on perception checks to find traps/secret doors/ambushers while we move through the dungeon.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Let me see if I have this correct. Your position is that you rarely see people complain that nearly every character in 5e is a spellcaster? I ask because to me it seems to be well within the top half-dozen most commonly voiced complaints about the edition.

I see very occasional, very minor grumbles.

I do not see people with torches and pitchforks because everyone is now a spellcaster.

I have seen the latter around things that did not make everything a spellcaster. That I don't see it now, when 5e literally has made nearly everyone a spellcaster, even Barbarians, is very noteworthy, yes.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Makes it more powerful if it can be at the same time but seems like it's ripe for problems. Like what happens if the fireball hits a group with 2+ humans. If one human passes can they then retroactively give advantage to a human who failed turning that failure into a success which then allows giving someone else a retroactive advantage roll.

i don't see that kind of daisy-chaining would be too busted personally, maybe just a matter of perspective, you're still only getting a 1-for-1 on humans to assisted targets.

Not sure if you are looking for constructive criticism or whether this was more just a way of showing the direction to take. I do very much like the direction, the actual implementation is a bit hit/miss, like the bookeeping seems bad, did I ever use my advantage on that random knowledge check Bob the Human succeed at 5 sessisons ago? And there's the potential "abuse" of ok before we go into the dungeon let's play a quick game of hide and seek, the rest of you watch Bob the Human find me so that you'll have advantage on perception checks to find traps/secret doors/ambushers while we move through the dungeon.

more just considering the direction, but i would point out that both of those sound like misinterpretations of the rule of the proposed ability, for one, it only targets one creature for one check, and second, the chance to give/use it only is in effect for a single minute after the initial check before expiring entirely, it's not something you can keep banked for multiple sessions, how far into a dungeon can you get in a minute? mostly it's applicability is in situations where everyone is attempting the same goal at the same time.