Sunder or Lock Weapons?

[Water Bob]

A Conan RPG Comment....



There's two contradictory rules in the Conan 2E core rulebook, and this is how I've resolved the issue. I want to see if you have a comment on it.

Check out pg. 174 in the Optional Parrying Rules: The Weapon Breakage Rule. There, it says if Total Attack = Total Defense, then proceed as if the attacker had made a successful Sunder attempt vs. the defender's weapon.

The Sunder is automatically successful, and the defender does not benefit from the usual Attack of Opportunity that defenders usually get when a Sunder attack is made agains them.

Basically, what this rule says is: If your attack totals to a tie with the defender's defense (AC), then do damage to the target's weapon instead of doing damage to the target.

Although the rule doesn't specify, I assume that the sunder will be against the target's shield, first, if the target is using a shield. And, if the target is making the parry with his weapon, then the Sunder is applied to the target's weapon.

Of course, the target must be using his Parry defense. If using the Dodge defense, the rule does not apply.







The contradictory rule appears on pg. 209 in the Combat Maneuvers section of the Combat Chapter, under Lock Weapons. There, it says that when an Attack throw exactly equals his target's Parry defense, the two combatants have their weapons locked together.

When this happens, both characters make an Opposed Grapple Check where the winner may choose to knock the loser back 5 feet. And, if the check is successful by 10+ points, then the loser is also knocked prone in his new square.





I tried this procedure in our last game session. It seems to work pretty well. You tell me what you think.

When Attack = Parry, it is automaically a Sunder, as with the first rule. The defender, though, can make a REF save vs. a DC equal to the tie. If successful, we use the Lock Weapons rule. If the save fails, then the attack becomes a normal hit for the attacker.

Example.

Silaigne attacks the Hyperborean. The Hyperborean attempts to parry with his shield, but the attack exactly equals the Hyperborean's parry defense. The attack totals 16, and the Hyperborean's Parry AC is 16.

Silaigne automatically gets a successful Sunder against the Hyperborean's shield.

But, the Hyperborean decides to try for the Lock Weapons result. He must make a REF save vs DC 16. If successful, the sunder result is ignored, and the two are considered to have their weapons locked. This will be resolved using the Lock Weapons rule: both will throw grapple checks.

If the REF save is not successful, then Silaigne's blow becomes a normal successful hit to the Hyperborean, doing normal damage.





Comments?

 

[Jimlock]

Hmmm... I dislike the fact that sunder/Weapon Breakage is so closely related to Weapon Locking. I mean I can't picture it... One attempts to break the weapon of the other... and the other's defense is to "lock the weapons"...

IMO something doesn't add up... I can't picture it

(If I understood you post correctly that is...)

.....


Other than that... did you finally incorporate any rule regarding small weapons (one that allows small weapon wielders to have chances for more attacks)? Remember the rules we were discussing a few months ago?

 

[Water Bob]

Hmmm... I dislike the fact that sunder/Weapon Breakage is so closely related to Weapon Locking. I mean I can't picture it... One attempts to break the weapon of the other... and the other's defense is to "lock the weapons"...

IMO something doesn't add up... I can't picture it

For me, it's not so much a stretch to think that someone is swinging hard, aiming more at the weapon in order to break it rather than trying to stick your opponent in the flesh, and instead of breaking or bouncing off each other, the result is a weapon lock.

Plus, it doesn't always happen. In our last game session, this came up, and the PC defender decided to allow the sunder, not wanting to risk a failed REF save that would result in a normal hit against him.

Other than that... did you finally incorporate any rule regarding small weapons (one that allows small weapon wielders to have chances for more attacks)? Remember the rules we were discussing a few months ago?

I haven't incorporated anything in the game yet, but I do have the ideas still in the back of my head. We're still not entirely comfortable with the Conan/3.5 rules--still looking things up. I want to learn the "official" system well before we start modding things.

I don't allow too many House Rules anyway. I like to stick to RAW as much as possible.

But, I may do something with the weapon speed rule in the future.

 

[cjosephs1s]

I am probably wrong (as I don't know hardly anything about Conan) but, the one thing that immediately jumped out as a red flag as to why the rules could be conflicting is one is under the section "Optional Parrying Rules". And since these rules are optional they might contradict other rules or they may supercede other rules or other rules may supercede them.

I'd read the fine print in this section to see when/how these rules apply and not just what they do and how to use them. It may shed some light on the discrepency. Or there may be another Conan sourcebook that says which rule to actually use and how it applies.

 

[Water Bob]

I am probably wrong (as I don't know hardly anything about Conan) but, the one thing that immediately jumped out as a red flag as to why the rules could be conflicting is one is under the section "Optional Parrying Rules". And since these rules are optional they might contradict other rules or they may supercede other rules or other rules may supercede them.

The Optional Rule is the Sunder when Attack = Defense.

The other rule, Lock Weapons, is not optional, but since it is a combat maneuver, it could be argued that a character doesn't have to use it, if he doesn't want to. The question would be, though, who decides? I'd say the attacker since the defender would always decide against it and nothing would happen.

So, you could look at it like this....

When Attack Throw exactly equals AC--

1. The attacker can decide to Lock Weapons or simply consider his strike a miss.

2. If the Optional Sunder Rule is used, a Sunder is resolved, and then the attacker can decide to Lock Weapons or not.



The way I think I'm going to play it in the future is: use the Optional Rule, but if the defender uses a shield, then the Sunder is against the shield and Lock Weapons not possible. If the defender does not use a shield, then Sunder vs. defender's weapon and then resolve Lock Weapons if the defender's weapon doesn't break.

That seems closest to what was intended in the rules.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Using a shield wouldn't preclude the character from Locking Weapons though. Heck, there might even be a possible feat where locking weapons allows for a free shield bash or off-hand strike as an AoO, if AoO's exist under Conan rules.