D&D 5E (2014) Tabaxi Feline Agility Question- How Would You Rule

[AlViking]

But Paul, the funny thing is if you read the rules right it does not even give you an advantage. This is by chance because the malus from prone 50% or factor x 1/2 by chance compensates with the buff from FA which is factor x2 and not +15 +30 like the people getting to a result of 45 ft if you just activate the thing after standing up claim all the time.

It is still like you say horse manure, because the rules should be clear at this point. That it mathematically by chance does not matter (if you do the computation and precondition right) in this case does not help, it in fact adds to the confusion.

I tried to show the mathematics by asking those who disagree to use their computation method on a total plain normal round which would have resulted in that with their method it would not matter if you moved 15 or stood up from prone you oddly would have a total movement of 45 for the round. But of course i was not successful. Feline Agility works like a haste spell and movement is not the same as speed, basta. Movement ratio is a speed/ round, but movement distance is just a freakin distance and not a speed ffs.

If you alter speed then you alter the distance that you can move, but it is a multiplication and not an addition.

So far i ultimately have to agree to @Remathilis last two posts, and i am tired and done at giving tutoring mathematics within this thread.

You still going on about multiplying movement? The only difference movement makes is that you subtract how much movement you have taken on your turn from your speed to see how much further you can go on your turn. The rules are pretty clear.

Not sure when you asked about a "regular" round or what the issue was.

 

[Coroc]

You still going on about multiplying movement? The only difference movement makes is that you subtract how much movement you have taken on your turn from your speed to see how much further you can go on your turn. The rules are pretty clear.

Not sure when you asked about a "regular" round or what the issue was.

Nah, i just referring to FA is like a haste. it multiplies your speed and therefore your potentioal distance with factor 2. That your addition method for OP example works fine also, if you use the FA at the beginning of the round is pure chance.

0+ 2x (30/2) = 30 (my method)


0+ 15 +15 = 30 (your method)


0+15 +30 = 45 (wrong method FA after standing up interpreted differently)

 

[AlViking]

Nah, i just referring to FA is like a haste. it multiplies your speed and therefore your potentioal distance with factor 2. That your addition method for OP example works fine also, if you use the FA at the beginning of the round is pure chance.

0+ 2x (30/2) = 30 (my method)


0+ 15 +15 = 30 (your method)


0+15 +30 = 45 (wrong method FA after standing up interpreted differently)

To calculate how far you can move after you stand you subtract how much movement you've taken. If your speed was 30 at the start of your turn and you did not yet invoke feline agility it took 15 feet of movement to stand.

If you do not change your speed the amount you can move the rest of your turn is 30 - 15 for 15.

If you invoke feline agility after you stand your speed changes from 30 to 60. To calculate how far you can now move on your turn it's 60 (your speed) - 15 (the amount of movement already moved) for 45 feet.

This works the other way too. If you had used feline agility at the start of your turn to close in on an enemy caster and you move 40 feet which triggers the caster's readied Slow spell you may need to recalculate how much further you can move. If you succeed (you are not slowed) you had 60 (speed) - 40 (movement taken) meaning you could still move 20 more feet. If you fail your save (speed halved) it's 30 (speed) - 40 (movement taken) which is less than 0 you cannot move any further.

No addition is used in the equation. I think it's a reasonable and clear way to handle mixed movement speeds. Unless I totally misunderstood what you were saying of course.

 

[Coroc]

To calculate how far you can move after you stand you subtract how much movement you've taken. If your speed was 30 at the start of your turn and you did not yet invoke feline agility it took 15 feet of movement to stand.

Your movement was 30. Your speed was normal.

If you do not change your speed the amount you can move the rest of your turn is 30 - 15 for 15.

agree

If you invoke feline agility after you stand your speed changes from 30 to 60. To calculate how far you can now move on your turn it's 60 (your speed) - 15 (the amount of movement already moved) for 45 feet.

Wrong. Your speed is double the normal speed after invoking FA and therefore doubles the remaining movement from 15 to 30

This works the other way too. If you had used feline agility at the start of your turn to close in on an enemy caster and you move 40 feet which triggers the caster's readied Slow spell you may need to recalculate how much further you can move. If you succeed (you are not slowed) you had 60 (speed) - 40 (movement taken) meaning you could still move 20 more feet. If you fail your save (speed halved) it's 30 (speed) - 40 (movement taken) which is less than 0 you cannot move any further.

The equation is partially correct, you had double speed for 60 movement, if you succeed your sve you can go for another 20, but if if you get slowed after 40 you which returns your speed to normal you got 10 left.

No addition is used in the equation. I think it's a reasonable and clear way to handle mixed movement speeds. Unless I totally misunderstood what you were saying of course.

Yeah you should not but you are only adding and substracting. Your speed is doubled means your movement gets doubled.

Your normal speed, whatever it is alows you to travel 30 ft in 1 round. If one round would b 10 seconds then you would move with 3ft/second which is an actual speed. If a round would last six seconds then you would move with a speed of 5 ft / second.

Since there seems to be no definition on wether a round takes 5 or ten seconds (which both would be realistic values), you do not know the exact value of your speed.

What you do know is whether you are going at your normal speed, or double speed (hit by haste spell or invoked FA) or half your speed (hit by a slow spell).

The prone stand up takes 50% (15) away from your movement as written, but does not alter your speed. The remaining movement distance is 15ft if your normal movement distance is 30ft at your normal speed. You may double that distance with a speed buff like FA or haste cast at that moment to be 2x 15ft = 30 ft.

If you had a speed buff by FA at the start of the round your theoretical movement distance would be 2x 30ft (double your normal movement) =60ft because of that buff, but the prone takes away a linear 50% of the movement, not caring if your speed had been doubled, so this would be 30ft at that point, leaving you with 30 ft of movement




By chance the 50% and the doubling due to FA eliminate each other, the numbers would not be so straight if
e.g. the stand up would take away only 10% of your movement, but still make no difference mathematically:

If it were like that, with FA upfront you would lose 6 ft of movement and could move another 54

With FA after standing up you would lose 3 ft and have 27 left which you could double now to be 54

You see, it really doesnt matter it is a linear relation, a 1st order function


If the stand up from prone would consume 100% of your movement then it also would not matter. Because FA does not work like a bonus action dash, but rather like a haste buff. You could stand up, but not move an inch in horizontal direction, no matter if used FA before or after.


In a normal round it does matter a lot.

FA upfront: If you moved (at double your speed) for 6 ft and got hit by a slow you could go for another 27.

No FA upfront but you moved (at your normal speed) for 6 ft got hit by slow have 9ft remaining and you could now only double that one to 18 only. So this clearly seems to be disadvantagous in this case, interesting, huh?

The difference is that with the prone stand up it takes away 50% no matter if your movement distance would have been 10 ft or 100 ft in that round. so if you double up speed before you got double your normal distance left, If you double up after you can double the remaining half, which is the same.

 

[AlViking]

Your movement was 30. Your speed was normal.

There is no "movement" mentioned in the rules on speed. There is "distance you have moved" and "how much further you can move".

One more time the rules are (bold added).

Special Speeds. Some creatures have special speeds, such as a Burrow Speed, Climb Speed, Fly Speed, or Swim Speed, each of which is defined in this glossary. If you have more than one speed, choose which one to use when you move; you can switch between the speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If the result is 0 or less, you can’t use the new speed during the current move. For example, if you have a Speed of 30 and a Fly Speed of 40, you could fly 10 feet, walk 10 feet, and leap into the air to fly 20 feet more.​

If the DM rules that you can switch your speed with feline agility (I would) any time during your turn you have switched your speed and have to calculate how much further you can move.

To repeat and explicitly spell out what we're talking about and how it works for our example based on the rules text because I don't know what you are referring to:

Whenever you [switch speed; changing from 30 to 60 because of feline agility], subtract the distance already moved [15 feet for standing] from the new speed. The result [60-15=45] determines how much farther you can move.​

agree

Wrong. Your speed is double the normal speed after invoking FA and therefore doubles the remaining movement from 15 to 30

No. Your speed becomes 60. You subtract the distance you have moved from your speed to get how much further you can move.

The equation is partially correct, you had double speed for 60 movement, if you succeed your sve you can go for another 20, but if if you get slowed after 40 you which returns your speed to normal you got 10 left.

No. If the result is 0 or less, you can’t use the new speed during the current move.

Yeah you should not but you are only adding and substracting. Your speed is doubled means your movement gets doubled.

Again, there is no try there is only do or do not ... wait that's not right ... there is speed, distance you have moved and how much further you can move.

Your normal speed, whatever it is alows you to travel 30 ft in 1 round. If one round would b 10 seconds then you would move with 3ft/second which is an actual speed. If a round would last six seconds then you would move with a speed of 5 ft / second.

Since there seems to be no definition on wether a round takes 5 or ten seconds (which both would be realistic values), you do not know the exact value of your speed.

What you do know is whether you are going at your normal speed, or double speed (hit by haste spell or invoked FA) or half your speed (hit by a slow spell).

The prone stand up takes 50% (15) away from your movement as written, but does not alter your speed. The remaining movement distance is 15ft if your normal movement distance is 30ft at your normal speed. You may double that distance with a speed buff like FA or haste cast at that moment to be 2x 15ft = 30 ft.

If you had a speed buff by FA at the start of the round your theoretical movement distance would be 2x 30ft (double your normal movement) =60ft because of that buff, but the prone takes away a linear 50% of the movement, not caring if your speed had been doubled, so this would be 30ft at that point, leaving you with 30 ft of movement




By chance the 50% and the doubling due to FA eliminate each other, the numbers would not be so straight if
e.g. the stand up would take away only 10% of your movement, but still make no difference mathematically:

If it were like that, with FA upfront you would lose 6 ft of movement and could move another 54

With FA after standing up you would lose 3 ft and have 27 left which you could double now to be 54

You see, it really doesnt matter it is a linear relation, a 1st order function


If the stand up from prone would consume 100% of your movement then it also would not matter. Because FA does not work like a bonus action dash, but rather like a haste buff. You could stand up, but not move an inch in horizontal direction, no matter if used FA before or after.


In a normal round it does matter a lot.

FA upfront: If you moved (at double your speed) for 6 ft and got hit by a slow you could go for another 27.

No FA upfront but you moved (at your normal speed) for 6 ft got hit by slow have 9ft remaining and you could now only double that one to 18 only. So this clearly seems to be disadvantagous in this case, interesting, huh?

The difference is that with the prone stand up it takes away 50% no matter if your movement distance would have been 10 ft or 100 ft in that round. so if you double up speed before you got double your normal distance left, If you double up after you can double the remaining half, which is the same.

If there is some rulebook you're referring to please provide a reference because my reference is the 2024 PHB Rules Glossary under Speed. There is no need to calculate speed in feet per round, we are told what it is and what to do if your speed changes sometime during that 6 second round.

Is subtracting the distance you have moved from your speed the most accurate way of calculating how much further you can move? Probably not. It is easy, simple, and what the rules of the game tell us to do.

 

[the Jester]

First multiply with 1/2 the multiply with one. And this is because of the special RAW that getting up from prone reduces your movement by 50%.

Once again: No it doesn't. It costs half your movement, but that doesn't reduce your movement at all, any more than moving into difficult terrain- which costs an extra 1' of movement per foot you move- halves your movement.

Shall i expand the case? I stand up and i double my remaining movement, but let us say i am a Tabaxi rogue and also use dash. Does the FA also persist during my dash bonus action? Do i get a 60 ft dash or is this not connected?

Yes. Your speed is 60' until the end of your turn.

But never mind, please tell me the number for my example for when the Tabaxi just activates the FA after having moved 15ft without it. Is it now a total of 45 ft which i would argue, or is it 60 ft anyway by just adding, instead of multiplying just as it should be?

If a tabaxi moves 15' and then activates FA, his speed becomes 60'. Since he has already moved 15', he has another 45' of movement available.

 

[Coroc]

Once again: No it doesn't. It costs half your movement, but that doesn't reduce your movement at all, any more than moving into difficult terrain- which costs an extra 1' of movement per foot you move- halves your movement.


Yes. Your speed is 60' until the end of your turn.


If a tabaxi moves 15' and then activates FA, his speed becomes 60'. Since he has already moved 15', he has another 45' of movement available.

why should his "speed" of 60 as you describe it have an effect on the 15' he already moved retroactively in the past ????
that is not possible because at start his "speed" was only 30.

And if you were correct with all of your assumptions, why would it not make any difference in a normal round on when you activate FA, but in the stand up from prone it suddenly would? That is so against logic that my toenails curl upward.

 

[AlViking]

why should his "speed" of 60 as you describe it have an effect on the 15' he already moved retroactively in the past ????

It doesn't. The 15' already moved is used in the calculation of how much movement you have left when your speed changes.

that is not possible because at start his "speed" was only 30.

A character's speed can change during their turn. Hence we have to read the rules to see how to determine remaining distance they can move on their turn after their speed changes.

And if you were correct with all of your assumptions, why would it not make any difference in a normal round on when you activate FA, but in the stand up from prone it suddenly would? That is so against logic that my toenails curl upward.

These are not "assumptions". They're the rules as clearly spelled out in the book. If your speed changes during your turn, recalculate how much further you can move by subtracting how much you have moved from your new speed.

You seem to be unwilling to read or unable to even acknowledge the rules clearly spelled out in the book. Have a good one.

 

[jasper]

nope. You stand up activate your double the speed to move 30 instead of 15

Not to move 15 having zero left to move - and then activate double the speed
because then you would be at the end of your round with your double speed activated but 0 movement left but you are standing there being in fact very quick - like an atheist after dead, all dressed up but nowhere to go.

Since I am the DM my ruling stands.
When you DM your ruling stands.
Welcome to D&D and Adventure League. There will be table variations.

 

[jasper]

And in real life it’s optimal to put your underwear on before your trousers. The order in which you do things tends to matter.

Hmm. I wondered why everyone at walmart was looking at me funny today. But hey they let me go to front of line.......