D&D General Talking to Players

[Charlaquin]

When I think "pirate" game, I'm thinking of a dark, gritty, unrated, evil type game. I'm not thinking of the happy guy swinging on a rope saying "tally-ho". I think a show like Black Sails for pirates.

It's like someone saying they want to play a "carjacker game", but they mean an "car racing game"

I mean, D&D characters are usually the protagonists, which in pirate media usually means they’re the “good pirates” - the Robbins Hood of the high seas, with the Royal Navy as the corrupt Sheriffs of Nottingham and the “evil pirates” who may or may not be undead as an additional antagonist. It’s certainly possible that they did mean they wanted to play an “evil campaign” where they raid and pillage innocent traders, but if Pirates of the Caribbean was the one example they gave you of what they were looking for, I think that’s unlikely. You should ask them though, I’m only guessing.

The problem is I like and want a long, long "rags to riches" style game that is HARD. And I'm not a Buddy DM that is a fan of the players. They get no help from me during the game. And I expect a huge level of simulation.

Ok, well your players seem to want a cool secret agent or pirate game, so chances are someone is going to be having a bad time unless a compromise can be reached.

Now my Spelljammer game is made up of players like them. The big difference is that they really, really, really wanted to play in a Spelljammer game(and still do). So in game one they get into a ship fight...and loose badly with half the characters dying. What is left of their ship crashes on a moon and they have near nothing. Now THIS is the point where a lot of casual players will storm out of my game: they "lost" so they will take their dice and go home.

They try and fix their ship enough to take off, with two new 'moon' characters...but I run a hard core resource game. And it's a wild moon with no magic shops. Then their foes come after them and they are captured. They escape...and get the clever idea to take the foes ship. Lots of fighting...but they win and scrap the other ship to just barley make their ship spaceworthy. And spend the next game limping around space, hiding and trying to fix the ship.

Few casual gamers would stick with the above game. As soon as they lost the fight they would have just complained, told me i'm a bad dm and ran away. But my Spelljammer group stuck with it as they WANTED to...so they could take the good and bad. This group does not have that drive.

Do you know they don’t have that drive because you’ve actually asked them if they would be interested in such a game and they told you no? If so, you already know they don’t want to play in that kind of game, so unless you’re willing to run a different kind of game for them, you and they will probably both be better off looking for other people to play with who’s interests are better aligned with each others’. If not, you should ask them. Maybe they’ll surprise you, and if not, at least you’ll know.

My point is more they said they wanted a "pirate game" not a "swashbuckling treasure hunt".

Is this the part where you start calling them clueless or liars? You seem to be the only one who’s confused about what “pirate game” typically means to people.

That sounds like a show to check out....that I've never heard of.

Yeah, check it out. Though, heads up, there’s a good chance your reaction is going to be “should have been called swashbucklers of dark water.”

That sounds like Swashbucklers of the Caribbean to me.......

Ok, well the title is Pirates of the Caribbean, it’s solidly within the “pirate movie” genre, and it’s the one example your players have given you of what “cool, fun pirate stuff” looks like to them. So, you should probably watch it (again, at least the first three, more if you’re so inclined) if you want to understand where their interests lie. You can grumble about the title all you want, it won’t change the fact that, that’s the kind of thing your players meant when they said “pirate game.”

 

[bloodtide]

I mean, D&D characters are usually the protagonists, which in pirate media usually means they’re the “good pirates” - the Robbins Hood of the high seas, with the Royal Navy as the corrupt Sheriffs of Nottingham and the “evil pirates” who may or may not be undead as an additional antagonist. It’s certainly possible that they did mean they wanted to play an “evil campaign” where they raid and pillage innocent traders, but if Pirates of the Caribbean was the one example they gave you of what they were looking for, I think that’s unlikely. You should ask them though, I’m only guessing.

See this is another disconnect I did not think of. There are "good" pirates: they are called Privateers, or something like Freebooters. But not "good pirates" . You don't say Robin Hood is a good criminal (though he is). You don't say Luke Skywalker is a good criminal (though he is).

I can be almost 100% sure they were not thinking of being evil characters.

You seem to be the only one who’s confused about what “pirate game” typically means to people.

And that is why this thread exists.

Maybe I know too much REAL history. Real pirates did things really bad.....that can't be typed. A least example is how Blackbeard would occasionally shoot and kill a guy if he was loosing at cards. To "keep his men on their toes" he said. He even did it to his first mate, but in the knee, so he did not die just had to limp for life.

This is the insight I was looking for though. Like I said I see things very differently then many other people.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Yeah. Now, salted fish was a valuable standard of the day, but pickled fish wasn't nearly as valuable, due to its greater weight and more localized markets.

A historical campaign is a lot more interesting when the DM is knowledgeable about the subject matter!

But I'm pretty sure players would say "we would like to play a history-based campaign" if that was what they wanted.

 

[Charlaquin]

See this is another disconnect I did not think of. There are "good" pirates: they are called Privateers, or something like Freebooters. But not "good pirates" . You don't say Robin Hood is a good criminal (though he is). You don't say Luke Skywalker is a good criminal (though he is).

I can be almost 100% sure they were not thinking of being evil characters.


And that is why this thread exists.

Maybe I know too much REAL history. Real pirates did things really bad.....that can't be typed.

No, plenty of us are well aware of what real pirates were like. We just don’t let that get in the way of enjoying fantasy fiction or games about the romanticized version of pirates portrayed in media.

I suspect the problem is not that you know the history, but that you are very, very literal.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

See this is another disconnect I did not think of. There are "good" pirates: they are called Privateers, or something like Freebooters.

Have you read Treasure Island? Long John Silver is not a "good" pirate, but he is still a charismatic character who becomes a surrogate father to the protagonist, who is not actually a pirate at all. Pirates of the Caribbean is much the same: the protagonist is Elizabeth Swan, a non-pirate. Jack Sparrow is a DMPC who is pretty much the poster boy for Chaotic Neutral, betraying everyone at every turn, either for his own advantage or just to make trouble.

But In D&D, it's up to the players to decide if they are vigilante heroes, murderous blackguards, or innocents caught up in things. That's not the DM's call (although you can probably get a clue from what they write in the alignment box on their character sheet).

But it's a positive advantage if you players haven't read Treasure Island* et al, since it means you can freely steal the plots without anyone being any the wiser - it's what a pirate would do.


*Hardly surprising, give it's length and Victorian prose style make it much more difficult than modern children's literature, although in other respects it stands up better than some stuff written in the 70s and 80s.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

No, plenty of us are well aware of what real pirates were like.

Same goes for spies. Everyone knows George Smiley is more like a real spy, but they mean James Bond with used in conjunction with the word "fun". Same goes for "space": they mean Star Wars, not Apollo 13.

 

[Charlaquin]

Pirates of the Caribbean is much the same: the protagonist is Emma Swan, a non-pirate.

*Elisabeth

 

[Paul Farquhar]

*Elisabeth

Corrected my post. Emma Swan was someone else.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Just a mention, if you feel out of touch with pop culture, there is always TVTropes: Pirate - TV Tropes Spy Fiction - TV Tropes

 

[FrozenNorth]

To be fair, bloodtide did say they asked the players this, and their answers were that they couldn’t think of anything, apart from confirming that they’d seen “some” 007 and Jason Borne, and Pirates of the Caribbean.

Which to me basically says they’re only very casually familiar with either genre, so your best bet is to go as trope-y as possible.

Often that’s a good thing, as you can steal plot lines, characters and twists from movies without the players catching on.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Oh, better far to live and die
Under the brave black flag I fly,
Than play a sanctimonious part,
With a pirate head and a pirate heart.
Away to the cheating world go you,
Where pirates all are well-to-do;
But I’ll be true to the song I sing,
And live and die a Pirate King.

When I sally forth to seek my prey
I help myself in a royal way.
I sink a few more ships, it’s true,
Than a well-bred monarch ought to do;
But many a king on a first-class throne,
If he wants to call his crown his own,
Must manage somehow to get through
More dirty work than ever I do.

 

[Umbran]

A historical campaign is a lot more interesting when the DM is knowledgeable about the subject matter!

It was only supposed to be a humorously pedantic bit about fish...

 

[Vaalingrade]

See this is another disconnect I did not think of. There are "good" pirates: they are called Privateers, or something like Freebooters. But not "good pirates" .

Privateers were pirates with a letter of marque, no less bad or more good.

Pop culture pirates are rollicking anti-heroes (at worst) out doing fun heists or scooby-dooing some nautical supernatural stuff.

 

[Clint_L]

When I think "pirate" game, I'm thinking of a dark, gritty, unrated, evil type game. I'm not thinking of the happy guy swinging on a rope saying "tally-ho".

So are you making this campaign for you, or for them?

Being blunt, your posts give a vibe like you don't really respect your players and are trying to make some kind of point about their historical or cultural ignorance by creating a D&D campaign to teach them lessons. I hope that's not the case and I really don't like speculating about motives, but you seem really fixated on avoiding the obvious answers to your questions: Pirates of the Caribbean. Mission Impossible. There are plenty of published D&D materials that fit exactly the tropes your players are describing, including the most recent WotC adventure.

So this shouldn't really be that difficult. That it is suggests there is something else going on.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Oh, better far to live and die
Under the brave black flag I fly,
Than play a sanctimonious part,
With a pirate head and a pirate heart.
Away to the cheating world go you,
Where pirates all are well-to-do;
But I’ll be true to the song I sing,
And live and die a Pirate King.

When I sally forth to seek my prey
I help myself in a royal way.
I sink a few more ships, it’s true,
Than a well-bred monarch ought to do;
But many a king on a first-class throne,
If he wants to call his crown his own,
Must manage somehow to get through
More dirty work than ever I do.

Clearly, those were the “Swashbucklers of Penzance”, not the “Pirates of Penzance”!

 

[nevin]

So, I have a new group and I find myself with some questions I'm hoping someone can answer.

So the players are all new to me as I've only known them a couple weeks. They are all younger then myself, so they all have a different view on things compared to me. I have a 5E Spelljammer game that they are all know each other. Some of those Spelljammer players convinced this group to stick with me. This group was previously a "goofy casual game with a Buddy DM". they have only ever played 5E D&D, and have no interest in any other game. As my game is a Hard Fun No DM Help type game, they had to agree to that and all my house rules. And they did.

So we did something of a session zero. Mostly they were making characters. They loved the part where I'd let them be any character they wanted. So they did not settle on "what" game they wanted......but two ideas were mentioned a lot. But I feel could be problems.

So the first idea is they might want to be "Secret Agents". And this is a common game idea I get from players. Though I don't think it will be a good fit for this group of newer players. As they were making characters they did not have must interest in "agent" like characters, and were "stuck" with the D&D 5E all combat characters. And I know this game will have the Mission Problem. As Secret Agents, they will be given a mission ("a quest"), but it won't be something they "want" to do. At best they will just turn down "all" Missions and the game will go nowhere, at worst they will drag themselves along something they don't want to do and the game will go nowhere. I can tell they are not the type of group that just takes ANY mission and makes a great game out of it or "does not care about the details" of what they do in the game.

So, how to avoid that?

1. So what is the draw to being a Secret Agent? Even more so for younger gamers. I did ask them this, but no one could articulate and answer, other then they are "cool". For me the draw would be going on missions. You get the mission "steal the scroll" from a vault, you TAKE it. That is part of being a Secret Agent. For me. But if not random missions, what does a younger gamer think a Secret Agent game would be about?

2. So what does Gen Y/Menlineals think of when they think Secret Agent? Again, asking them they were "not sure", "did not know" or "could not think of anything". When I mentioned 007, Borne and Mission Impossible they did say they watched "some". They, had never heard of Get Smart, Chuck, La Feem Nikita, Alias, Covert Affairs, Burn Notice, Homeland, Citidel, Old Man or Patriot. And they don't read any books. So what are the Gen Y spy/secret agent shows? Cartoons?

The second idea....is Pirates. And I feel this would not work out either. As they like "action" they sure don't want a classic pirate game where they would attack a merchant ship that put up no fight, and they got loot of like 200 barrels of pickled fish. But, also the "gold coast" of super overloaded treasure ships of....like 50,000 gold? And this is the big clash with D&D as they will expect huge tons of piles of gold coins. And then the magic items of just the captain are worth more then all the gold on the merchant ship. But if I do anything beyond the book....they will loose and have character death super quick. I know they are not ready for ship to ship combat or naval combat.

3. So again, what is the Gen Y draw for Pirates? I'm sure they don't want to do the classic pirate game of stagey. And they are sure not up to combat stratagem. I did ask them this, but no one could articulate and answer, other then they are "cool". I love role playing in the pirate world, but what might they want?

4. What does Gen Y think of when they think Pirates? Again, asking them they were "not sure", "did not know" or "could not think of anything". Other then they had seen a Pirates of the Caribbean Disney movie. They had never heard of Errol Flynn(no surprise) or any ' sailing ship' movie like The Bounty or Cutthroat Island...and had never seen Black Sails. And they don't read any books, so they have not read Treasure Island. So what are the Gen Y Pirate shows? Cartoons?

5. Bonus. They only want to play D&D 5E....but are there any good games out there that can work well with that? I have a bunch of Pirate games...in a box somewhere. But it's been a while. Are there any with a good social system? Anything new in the past five years or so? Like 'pirate honor' and 'reputation'. Maybe a good, workable economic system? I sort of remember an older game that had a good pirate honor and law honor system. I think it was a more 'Asian' type game, but don't recall the name. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

if they turn down the mission then they get relagated to the b team. The guys that say yes get the awesome missions. Give em the one that's the most important to whoever assigns them. If they turn them down, they get a worse mission and so on and so on till they only get recue the cat from the tree. They'll either get there or quit being agents and go on to be adventurers doing what they want.

 

[nevin]

Oh and play up how the party that took the mission becomes the shining star of the organization.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah. Don’t do what @nevin suggests. That’s just really bad advice.

Look, as someone who has had to deal with a lot of new to the table players over the year, my advice is twofold.

1. Be absolutely crystal clear about your game when recruiting players. Your first mistake was just asking what they want and then rejecting what they tell you in favour of what you want to run.

You can’t both ask the players what they want to play and then insist they play what you want to run. If you have fairly specific ideas about the game, you have to be absolutely crystal clear about that to your players.

If half the players quit your game after you run a session that’s on you. You failed to communicate what they should expect from your game.

Secondly, do not try to resolve these things “in character “. You are fundamentally playing a different game from your players and any “in game” resolution will fail. They just won’t understand any more than if you tried castling in Monopoly.

In the immortal words, “What we have here is a failure to communicate.”

 

[Vaalingrade]

A new piece of reference media for Secret Agent stuff just dropped. It's a Schwarzenegger series on Netflix called FUBAR.

It's basically True Lies if Harry had a grown up daughter.

Also, True Lies. Another good one.

I'm mostly using this thread to talk about spy, heist and pirate media.

 

[payn]

A new piece of reference media for Secret Agent stuff just dropped. It's a Schwarzenegger series on Netflix called FUBAR.

It's basically True Lies if Harry had a grown up daughter.

Also, True Lies. Another good one.

I'm mostly using this thread to talk about spy, heist and pirate media.

Counter part for spies, and Black Sails for pirates…