temp hp vs angry players

[unan oranis]

So its my understanding that temporary hit points do not stack; ever.

If you gain 5 and had 4, you now have 5.

I just started a new campaign (other 4e paused at lvl18), one of my players chose assassin as his class and gets 2 temp hp a lot...

when I break the news to him that they don't stack he's gonna flip out.


Regardless of balance, I'm sure that every person in our group will feel very strongly that they should stack... and I want to say "yes".

So how game breaking is that?

We've a house-rule that ongoing damages of the same type do stack if they come from different types of monsters, and even the exact same monsters will create conditions that need to be saved against separately, likely prolonging an existing poison 5 or whatever.

So maybe that will sort of balance out (asymmetrically anyway, as only a couple of classes will get the temp hp boosters but everyone will get hosed by multiple ongoing damages)

Another possibility is to "burn" 1 temp hp a round - sort of balance it out?

Any suggestions or warnings would be welcome...

 

[Chainsaw]

Sounds like both you and also your players want them to stack. So give it a shot - with the up-front warning that it's not RAW and if it starts to disrupt the game, you may have to change it back. It's clearly going to empower your players, but how much really depends on their classes and strategies.

 

[Kzach]

IMO it's very game-breaking.

Temp hit points do stack, occasionally, but only in rare exceptions.

As a general rule, stacking them makes characters very powerful. Think of it as damage resistance.

Not only that, but it encourages players not to take short rests so combats will become at-will slug-fests because temp hit points remain until you take a short or extended rest. So stacking between encounters becomes a huge problem.

 

[BobTheNob]

Pretty game breaking indeed.

Temp HP are not HP. They are a different mechanism, more akin to damage reduction, and when the designers came up with them (note : stroke of genius IMHO) they had the up front caveat that they dont stack. Since then, ever single power/feat/class feature/whatever that they have come up with has been written under this assumption.

Sometimes rules are perepheral or limited in scope. This is not. Its system endemic and system wide. The repurcusions of just changing it would not only be misguided (strong wording there, and said with all due respect), but game breaking.

To me (and I will add, Im not a rule Nut. I love houseruling) this is probably the single most balance smashing thing I have heard proposed.

You might want to sit your players down and explain very carefully that temp hp and classes that leverage them are already a very powerful feature and they might just have to accept this is not something you should be toying with. If that makes them angry....well, no game will survive long term if DM decisions are influenced by player bullying, especially when the rules are clearly defined and against them.

Thats just my position, my team leverages temp HP effectively and by the rules and love it while they are at it. Your position is less enviable.

Good luck

 

[Amaroq]

I suspect its a bit of a can of worms to allow it and then try to un-allow it later. I think you're much better off stating "See PHB 294 and the errata which clarifies same".

Here's why:

When you allow it, at Level 1 it doesn't feel game-breaking. I mean, seriously, who cares if the Assassin has two temporary hit points or four?

But if you allow it, and your players start building their characters around stacking THP on more THP ...

... then by the time you hit, say, Level 5, and the fighter has a Lifedrinker Longsword +1 and is gaining 5 temporary hit points per minion killed .. while in his Rain of Steel stance .. while the Infernal Pact Warlock has buffed her 46 HP up by 21 + 2d8 THP thanks to use of Vampiric Embrace, Armor of Agathys, and Fiendish Resilience, plus 5 THP for every Cursed enemy she drops ..

... You're looking at a huge difference. When you're up into the Paragon paths, the discrepancy is going to be fairly extreme.

I all but guarantee you'd want to change it by that point, but then you run into things like:

"But I built my whole character concept around getting temporary hit points!" (When in fact he'd built his character's mechanics around an exploit and is complaining because he's getting "nerfed" and thinks its unfair.)

Its a lot easier to be harsh about it now and not have to have that discussion later.

If you do decide to keep it stacked as described, you're going to need to count the party as probably Lvl + 1 at early levels and Lvl + 2 at mid-levels, and simply remove Minions from your repertoire (or refuse THP for any action involving Minions) .. otherwise the encounters are going to be all too easy.

 

[BobTheNob]

Besides, there has actually been occasions when I have mis-interpretted the rules or implemented house rules that have impacted directly on characters. Whenever I bring radical change into the game I assess which characters are most dramatically affected by this and come up with offers to those players for changes to the character to compensate for investment based on mis-information. So if they have invested into one thing heavily and the rule changes, you offer them a path. Its the spooful of sugar to help the medicine go down.

If they complain after that, then its not you that has the problem, its them and their maturity levels. Our group is older and have been playing for decades now. The maturity level make a massive difference. The players understand that when I introduce rule changes it is for the best of the game and that their enjoyment is my primary objective. I recently super-nerfed "Twin Strike", and after explaining my reasoning and offering him a free retrain, our Ranger he shrugged his shoulders and said "yea, that works better" and kept the power anyway. So preferable to "Thats BS! No way! Go to hell! Im not playing any more!"

Appeal to your players maturity. You either confront and fix the problem now, or have a much bigger one later.

 

[unan oranis]

Those are some good points, all.

My previous party for were all strikers, over 18 levels they never really used temp hp.

I'm looking at some of these other classes and yeah, stacking the temp hp is going to go mental pretty quick. Not gonna do it.

My players are certain to get angry, but not at me; at the rules... I don't blame them.

It kind of sucks from a players point of view.

 

[Chainsaw]

I suspect its a bit of a can of worms to allow it and then try to un-allow it later. I think you're much better off stating "See PHB 294 and the errata which clarifies same".

Probably makes sense. I haven't played at higher levels or with folks whose characters really emphasize temporary hit points. It's probably only relevant in our game 1-2 rounds every session (3-4 battles). I wasn't really considering the pain of un-doing character advancement choices that might have been picked based on exploiting the temp hitpoints.

 

[makeshiftwings]

I'd add that it would be especially bad to allow it stacking for the Assassin. The Assassin is supposed to be squishy. The temp hp are supposed to be a small cushion against damage to let him enter into melee for a while before escaping. Assassins have lots of ways to turn invisible and retreat to cover and stealth (at-will teleport!). He'll be hard to hit as it is; he doesn't need 30 extra hp.

 

[bardolph]

Those are some good points, all.

My previous party for were all strikers, over 18 levels they never really used temp hp.

I'm looking at some of these other classes and yeah, stacking the temp hp is going to go mental pretty quick. Not gonna do it.

My players are certain to get angry, but not at me; at the rules... I don't blame them.

It kind of sucks from a players point of view.

Temp HP are supposed to create a small, temporary damage buffer. They are most useful for characters who are drawing enemy attacks. In this scenario, you buff/take damage/buff again/take damage again/etc.

Temp HP are basically a "poor man's tank."

If the PC is not drawing enemy attacks, the PC should switch to a different attack mode once their temp HP is "maxed out," and only use the Temp HP buffs after they take damage and lose their temp HP.

This is the intended use for temp HP IMO.