Spoilers The Boys (are back in town) s5 [spoilers]

[Stalker0]

Im guessing thats an effects cost thing. Pretty hard to consistently show that level of ability. Which is why 9/10 Homelander kills are like baby seal clubbings.

It’s really not though with that level of super speed. In fact you don’t have to show anything. We had that earlier with the billionaire. Now you see them, blink, now you don’t. Way easier than cgi eye beam effects.

The real reason is because if homelander actually used his powers he wins…he just wins. The second he realizes kimiko might have the juice, blink, he has appeared next to her and ripped her in half. Blink, she’s now in space. Ok butcher what else you got?

It’s not just this show all speedsters in media have the same problem. They should just always win, so they get nerfed to allow the plot to happen

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It was a bit of a last minute deus ex machina solution to the Homelander problem, unless I missed/forgot a bunch of earlier stuff (which is entirely possible). It seemed really sudden to me.

It's not just you, it was kind of sudden.

I think some people had been thinking about Soldier Boy's chest-blast as a way to kill Homelander for quite a while, but the idea of causing another character to acquire that precise, exact power, whilst foreshadowed by them having the research from like like S3 or early S4 (so probably always planned as the end, I suspect, I dunno if it's the same in the comics), and made plausible by Sage being involved, did still feel rather abrupt and sort of lacked emotional weight.

 

[payn]

It’s really not though with that level of super speed. In fact you don’t have to show anything. We had that earlier with the billionaire. Now you see them, blink, now you don’t. Way easier than cgi eye beam effects.

The real reason is because if homelander actually used his powers he wins…he just wins. The second he realizes kimiko might have the juice, blink, he has appeared next to her and ripped her in half. Blink, she’s now in space. Ok butcher what else you got?

It’s not just this show all speedsters in media have the same problem. They should just always win, so they get nerfed to allow the plot to happen

Right, im just grasping at straws. I think doing an X-men style supers show is always gonna have that challenge. Other than not giving people certain abilities im not sure what else you can do?

 

[Stalker0]

Other than not giving people certain abilities im not sure what else you can do?

That's the crux right there. There are powers that are both interesting and make for great narratives, and there are ones that don't.

Super Speed is just one of the later....it never works narratively without some kind of nerf.

Another example from our OG superhero show....Heroes. Peter Petrali in that show started out with the ability to mimic other powers he got in contact with, but only 1 at a time. That was really cool, used in interesting ways.

Then later on we find out, oh no he can actually permanently hold on to powers and just gain all of them. He was a stronger Sylar than Sylar was! Suddenly he's more OP than OP, and now you have to run through hoops to prevent him from just winning everything.

When it comes to writing superpowers, the number 1 most important thing is picking the right powers. You pick the right set, you have a cool interesting narrative with high stakes. Pick the wrong ones, and your spending all of your mental energy figuring out how person X doesn't just auto win your plot everytime.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It’s not just this show all speedsters in media have the same problem. They should just always win, so they get nerfed to allow the plot to happen

I mean, no, speedsters shouldn't always win, but the issue is that generally the way shows and comics prevent them winning isn't showing that their powers aren't that great and you could only ignore so many of the laws of physics if you interacted with anyone else (or even with the air itself), but rather by making them just, not use their powers much. At least with A-Train he pretty much always has to like brace before kicking off to super-speed, which is a good limitation (if forgotten a couple of times).

That specific issue though is why I think they should have opened the fight with Kimiko letting off a partially-charged blast so Homelander is still extremely strong but the gap between him and everyone else is a lot smaller and the whole thing becomes more manageable.

They're also just not consistent about Homelander's maximum speed, especially when it's in service of a good joke, like chucking Elon Musk into space. To get to space that fast Homelander would have to have travelled at like 200km/s, which would have probably levelled the White House if he did it right next to it. And he usually seems to top out at like "rocket" speeds. But him awkwardly vanishing for like several minutes wouldn't have been as fun.

I dont really know what The Boys is besides gruesome deaths and dick jokes. There is some semblance of a good story in the background, but it never seems to fully materialize.

I mean it is, undeniably, if nothing else, gruesome deaths. Sparing Homelander a gruesome death would be fundamentally unworkable.

 

[Stalker0]

That's the crux right there. There are powers that are both interesting and make for great narratives, and there are ones that don't.

Super Speed is just one of the later....it never works narratively without some kind of nerf.

Another example from our OG superhero show....Heroes. Peter Petrali in that show started out with the ability to mimic other powers he got in contact with, but only 1 at a time. That was really cool, used in interesting ways.

Then later on we find out, oh no he can actually permanently hold on to powers and just gain all of them. He was a stronger Sylar than Sylar was! Suddenly he's more OP than OP, and now you have to run through hoops to prevent him from just winning everything.

When it comes to writing superpowers, the number 1 most important thing is picking the right powers. You pick the right set, you have a cool interesting narrative with high stakes. Pick the wrong ones, and your spending all of your mental energy figuring out how person X doesn't just auto win your plot everytime.

Now taking my notes here and extending it to the boys. Lets imagine that Homelander never had "super speed". Ok he's pretty fast, he can give Husain Bolt a run for his money, but he's not zipping around.

Ultimately it doesn't the plot of the show THAT much. Homelander is still practically invincible, he still can fly (and so can get to places MUCH faster than most things can), he's still overwhelmingly strong. He's just not omnipresent. Most fights go pretty much the same as they do now. But it makes A Train more of an interesting foil for a time, maybe feeds into Homelander's paranoia that A train might do something against him. It also makes Homelander rely on Vought's power and influence a bit more, which has its own interesting consequences....but ultimately the plot of him ascending Vought and taking it over still happens.


So that's one way to do it. Now if that's not enough. Ok, we give Homelander super "travel speed". When he takes to the air, and he spends a couple of seconds to power up, he burst forward at his insane speeds. So that still gives you the "omnipresent menance" angle, but it means that in a straight up fight there is no super speed, he just doesn't have time to get that power activated unless he legitimately gets away for a moment.

So there are a few ways you can go about it. But of course Homelander was a superman knockoff and you got to gives Supes his super speed....even if Superman's own superspeed is nerfed countless times in comics to make the plot happen.

 

[sevenbastard]

the number 1 most important thing is picking the right powers. You pick the right set, you have a cool interesting narrative with high stakes. Pick the wrong ones, and your spending all of your mental energy figuring out how person X doesn't just auto win your plot everytime.

Kind of like running high level encounters. Opps I forgot about that spell/feat and the party killed the boss before it even got to it initiative count.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Now taking my notes here and extending it to the boys. Lets imagine that Homelander never had "super speed". Ok he's pretty fast, he can give Husain Bolt a run for his money, but he's not zipping around.

Ultimately it doesn't the plot of the show THAT much. Homelander is still practically invincible, he still can fly (and so can get to places MUCH faster than most things can), he's still overwhelmingly strong. He's just not omnipresent. Most fights go pretty much the same as they do now. But it makes A Train more of an interesting foil for a time, maybe feeds into Homelander's paranoia that A train might do something against him. It also makes Homelander rely on Vought's power and influence a bit more, which has its own interesting consequences....but ultimately the plot of him ascending Vought and taking it over still happens.


So that's one way to do it. Now if that's not enough. Ok, we give Homelander super "travel speed". When he takes to the air, and he spends a couple of seconds to power up, he burst forward at his insane speeds. So that still gives you the "omnipresent menance" angle, but it means that in a straight up fight there is no super speed, he just doesn't have time to get that power activated unless he legitimately gets away for a moment.

So there are a few ways you can go about it. But of course Homelander was a superman knockoff and you got to gives Supes his super speed....even if Superman's own superspeed is nerfed countless times in comics to make the plot happen.

Yeah this is right way to do it.

And yes, bloody Superman's bloody super-speed is so bloody stupid, and honestly if they ever rebooted him, they should get rid of it or really outline the limits to it very clearly, because him also basically being a speedster just breaks a whole lot of his own plots. Like, I don't mind how fast he can fly, but but he shouldn't be a speedster.

The other issue I noticed increasingly with S4 and S5 of The Boys is that, in general, more and more supers seemed to be "generically strong and tough". That's not uncommmon as a superhero genre thing. It's very explicit and detailed in White Wolf's Aberrant, for example, all Aberrants are strong and tough. In Marvel, at least some of the time, all mutants are much stronger and tougher than normal humans (to the point where it was a rule in Marvel FASERIP IIRC - if not that one of the Marvel TTRPGs). It makes sense.

But in the early seasons of The Boys, it doesn't really seem to be the case, it's more like some supers are, but some are just as flimsy as normal people. It's quite specific. But by S5, basically most supers seem to be able to tank handgun bullets, get into super-fisticuffs with obviously-strong supers and so on. I dunno if this was always the intention and it was just not played up much before, but it kind of stuck out for me.

 

[Zardnaar]

Definitely.

Yeah, I felt like the speech turn was to make the audience (In the Boys world, watching the live feed) turn against Homelander. I think it would have been more interesting for him to give this sermon like speech and then folks struggle watching Homelander fight the Boys live on TV. Sort of like the people finally get to see what we the audience of the show have seen for seasons now, Homelander is certifiably a terrible man worthy of being taken out at any cost.

I dont really know what The Boys is besides gruesome deaths and dick jokes. There is some semblance of a good story in the background, but it never seems to fully materialize.

Valorie Curry was great as firecracker and I think her send off episode was the best of the season. Im sure thats gonna get some side-eye from fans because I clearly dont get the true spirit of The Boys it would seem.

All the actors did great she's awesome.

Dick jokes etc are fine but they over did it almost every episode. Did a rewatch finishing last week.
Writing went downhill late season 3 (post herogasm). Didnt fall off a cliff (hello GoT)but S5 jumped in a go-kart down that hill.

 

[payn]

All the actors did great she's awesome.

Dick jokes etc are fine but they over did it almost every episode. Did a rewatch finishing last week.
Writing went downhill late season 3 (post herogasm). Didnt fall off a cliff (hello GoT)but S5 jumped in a go-kart down that hill.

Trying, as I may, to understand your leads here. I do think the show got pretty bad as early as season 2, but I think the final season was actually about as good as The Boys gets. So, I wouldn't agree it was a slow descent into pure awful finale that GoT was.