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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Azalnubizar" data-source="post: 1468111" data-attributes="member: 17511">I agree with Majere here.Setting up possible szenarios what pcs might do or how the dragon might react doesn't prove anything here - really.The player characters can do everything that the dragon can - and maybe four times...So the dragon conjures a solar - maybe we have four clerics in our party, conjuring four solars?Even if you assume the standard group: 1 wizard, 1 fighter, 1 rogue & 1 cleric you cannot start to predict what might be happening.Every spell the beast launches can be countered or payed back with the same and more...yes, I agree, that this monster is very tough and can be very tricky to beat, but just because most of the scenarios you can think of result in disaster, doesn't mean there is a wrong CR.In my experience, player characters tend to come up with a set of very nasty surprises and, as already mentioned by Majere, every monster of CR 17+ is supposed to become a possible TPK.I am pretty sure, that if you give your players time to set up a group of 18th level characters and tell them, what creature they are up against (so they can prepare - if you go into a lair of a nearly epic dragon, you do NOT go unprepared) you will have a 50%+ success rate... just try it.And this is with characters set up from the spot. Most players grow with their characters. I did not know the wizard spells as well as the player I once had, who played an 18th level wizard. This means - players that play their characters from low level to high level often develop much better tactics, than characters that are made 18th level from the spot.What you should not forget is, that a group of four characters has four full actions per round - the dragon doesn't.Try to take an 18th level group against the beast and prove me wrong.Azal</blockquote>

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