The Far Realm and Evil

[domfin]

So... I'm reading the Lords of Madness and I'm getting a kick out of it. I like the Lovecraftian horror elements and overall it's a better read than I expected.

However, I'm confused about the cosmological changes. I thought that, officially, the Far Realm was NOT a part of the core cosmology. Yet this book seems to suggest otherwise, as does a timeline kicking around the forum here somewhere.

In my homebrew, I'm basically using the core Greyhawk cosmology, slightly tweaked. I have an overgod who is behind the scenes, completely unknown to all but the gods themselves. The gods are supremely powerful, but are also a bit like "super-angels." In this way, I'm borrowing from Tolkien. As far as the material plane knows, Pelor and Nerull function very broadly as "God" and "the devil," with all the other gods basically taking up sides (the overgod respects the free will of the gods, just as it does of all intelligent beings).

Anyway, all of that is somewhat secondary. I don't have a problem with incorporating the Far Realm into all this. My original idea for it was NOT that it was a cosmic predecessor to the other planes (it really grates on me as a professional theologian to imagine the gods only having power because people worship them - its also internally inconsistent in the default setting itself). Rather, the Far Realm was basically a hidden, cosmic "magic dump." All magic manipulates reality, which implies that there is an "objective" reality being manipulated. I'm positing (very loosely, I'll admit) that these magical changes to reality create "metaphysical garbage" that is the Far Realm.

OK. Even all THAT hasn't reached my point (sorry!). If the beings that exist in the Far Realm are "elder evils," how do I make that jive with the notion of "evil" gods in the "regular" realms? Are they two different "flavors" of evil? Is one beholden to the other? I briefly toyed with the idea that Nerull (as my big cosmic evil force) was also ruler over the Far Realm, but that really just makes the Far Realm another evil outer plane. But my cosmology can't permit that the beings of the Far Realm are actually more powerful than the gods, and it seems to be a too-easy abstraction to say that the beings of the Far Realm are simply amoral (my campaign thrives on the good vs. evil conflict). But having two "evils" seems clunky.

If anyone can interpret this, any ideas about how to solve my metaphysical conundrum?

C

This is imo a very good metaphor to have. The "Evil" that interacts with the world is actively choosing evil. And the "Elder Evils" outside the realms of reality as we know it are passive. They cannot be beholden to one another because that would interfere with the other on a fundamental level. I think of the Far Realm as Lovecraft made cosmic horror. Apathetic at worst, and indifferent at best.

These beings beyond reality should not, would not, and could not care any less about the planes or the struggle between good and evil. The wolves and bears in a forest don't care about the human city twenty miles away, so the Old Ones should operate the same way. In the same vein, animals aren't good or evil, they simply operate on instinct that is usually detached from morality as a whole.

There are some Far Realm residents that are presented with a doorway to the prime material but do not notice, or do not care. And so the only influence on the world is akin to a breath blowing the seeds off a dandelion. The few that do care, like Illithid, actively invade at times but only for what they see as harvesting honey from a beehive.

It's not terribly hard to detach them from your struggle of good and evil if you consider them closer to animals with instinctual and unknowable goals.

 

[Umbran]

It can help to remember what Lovecraftian horror is really about.

Lovecraftian horror is what you get when the human conception that humans are hot stuff, important, that the universe revolves around us collides with that being deeply, seriously, untrue. That humans aren't just not the hotness, but that we are such small potatoes that the real powers of the world are incomprehensible to us. Not just we don't understand their motives, but even their basic geometry breaks our brains whe we are exposed to it.

Lovecraftian horror lies in the existential dread of the universe not giving a fig about humans, and human inability to understand anything of any value.

It is "evil" only in the sense of complete non-empathy for mortals. Like, ants think your foot is evil when it trods on them. They cause pain and suffering because your pain doesn't register to them.

The horror is in the conflict between thinking you matter, and the universe not actually caring about your pain, that your notion of evil being about your suffering is just your self-aggrandisement talking. Calling and Elder God "evil" is like an ant waving itsnlittle antennae at your shoe, decrying the suffering it causes.

The Far Realm, in this form, is not a realm of madness or chaos. Madness is merely the result when merely mortal minds try to wrap themselves around its rules.

And, in this form, having mortal notions of Good or Evil apply to the Elder Powers misses the point. They are, by definition, beyond such things, and it is only your hubris that leads you to think your morals apply to them.

And that's what makes them so dangerous. Since they are not limited by the rules our space adheres to, they BREAK our space when they come in contact with it.

 

[azabaro]

Basically, the problem is that there can't BE a being that is divorced from good and evil (law and chaos are much less important modifiers in my world). Good and evil define the fundamental directions of the universe; everything one does is good or evil, and character can be defined by action. Beings of the Far Realm could be extremely alien, but ultimately their actions are defineable as good or evil. Given their apathy and/or desire to enslave everything they meet, I would generally define them as evil!

I think you've introduced a paradox in your setup here. You've decided that every action a being takes is good or evil and indicated that isn't a matter of intent (since otherwise beings without a theory of mind couldn't be said to be acting in a good or evil way at any point in time, which would imply the existence of beings who are totally divorced from good and evil). But then you're trying to categorize Far Realms beings as evil based on intentions ("apathy and/or desire to enslave"), but not on actions.

In your position I'd want to resolve this contradiction. If you want to stick to the idea that every action is either good or evil (which philosophically implies that e.g. continuing to read when tired until you fall asleep in your chair instead of going to sleep in your bed is somehow either Good or Evil) then the easiest way out is to lean on the apathy of Far Realms beings: they're less evil than typical undead and fiends because they mostly don't get around to doing much. Sure, Great Cthulhu may eventually show up and drive all the humans on a planet mad in some unknowably distant future, but how much evil will evil outsiders have collectively done by that time? In that sense you might think of this as the difference between a vampire and Galactus: both kill people to satisfy their appetites, but which are you going to spend more time worrying about? I guess you could also have evil outsiders somehow benefit from the evil others do, like they actually get collectively stronger as the absolute or proportional amount of evil (actions? beings?) in the setting.

The alternative is to decide that actions aren't intrinsically either Good or Evil, which allows you to avoid having to grapple with the moral significance of Far Realms beings in the same way you probably avoid thinking about the moral value of e.g. a bird pooping on someone ("that's Evil...unless they poop on a lich. That would be Good").

 

[Umbran]

It's not terribly hard to detach them from your struggle of good and evil if you consider them closer to animals with instinctual and unknowable goals.

...and it is the internal conflict from learning that we are the animals with only instinctual goals that causes madness.

 

[TerraDave]

That (thread) is not dead which can eternal lie.