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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gimby" data-source="post: 3750206" data-attributes="member: 49875">We can.  And it's a role that the Fighter equivilent has always tried to do.  In every edition you have tried to protect the softer targets by interposing yourself - the Knight just allows a mechanical method for doing so.  Ultimately, why do you think "Tank" is a role in MMOs?Fighting challenge and Test of Mettle, yes.  Although they only work on certain opponents and allow a save.Call to Battle is nothing like Battle Shout, it allows a re-roll of a fear save rather than giving a boost to damage.  The closest match to Battle Shout would be the Inspire Courage use of bardic music.  Similarly on Daunting Challenge, it does not cause enemies to flee - if anything it is closer to Demoralising Shout.  Again, affects only a subset of enemies and allows a save.  Loyal beyond Death is similar to Last Stand, but the source of the idea (hard bitten fighter struggling on beyond lesser men) is hardly unique to WoW.  The implememtation is different too- you don't die when your Last Stand timer runs out.Or as we knew it in 3rd ed core, Mass Cure Light Wounds.  Healing over time is hardly a WoW innovation, I may be misremebering but didn't Regenerate in 2nd ed work in this fashion?  Again, Counterattack does not work like Overpower or Mongoose Bite (none of their limitations on activation) and even then counterattacking your opponent's attacks is about as generic as it gets.Heh.I'll not argue that some of the knights features certainly feel like those found in WoW and may well be inspired by them, but claiming that they are a straight rip-off is a little ingenous.  Personally, I like the Crusader's implementation of this archetype rather more than the Knight  as I think the flavour works much better in that case.  The problem comes when it is so hard to define what the traditional D&D flavour is.  Especially as WoW et al have been ripping it off so thoroughly for as long as we can remember.  Even then, unlimited casting and "per encounter" based powers owe a lot to other traditional rpgs- take a look at the Charm mechanics and Scene-Long powers in Exalted for example.  Or if you are worried about "mana bars" think about magic points from 1st ed WHFRP.  <snip>Sorry to bang on, it is just that I have been hearing this "it's too video-gamey" or "it's changing into an MMO" a lot, often without people being able to really define what they mean by that.  Or even when they do the tropes that they complain about are either not present in computer games or are clearly originally D&D inspired.-edited for factual content.</blockquote>

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