Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
The (Generalist) Rogue, Bard, and Wizard. One of these things is not like the other.
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 5988987" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>This is quite a good post and there is so much relevant content to address that I don't feel I can snip any of it. I'm going to work my way through your points in a different chronology than you have devised in your post.</p><p></p><p>1) You are quite correct that dealing with these issues through spell mechanic manipulation will have inter-class reverberations that will affect specialists or other classes if spell lists are shared. Kaiilurker brought this point up upthread. If done, I think the best way of handling this would be (again...and clearly contentious) hard-coding some of the open-ended spells that function outside of the mechanics as "pillar conflict circumvention." These spells can actually be coded to be quite potent as there standard M.O. usage (eg decent bonuses to skill checks for Scrying or Arcana or Spellcraft or Knowledge (Planar) for binding and seeking answers from a summoned creature or creating a Teleportation Circle). The problem manifests when total pillar conflict circumvention is available through negotiation or leveraging open-ended mechanics with the DM. If the mechanics upper limits are more tightly bound then I am fine with the mean usage getting a boost, so long as a boost means "class-relevant interaction with the fiction that does not result in pillar conflict circumvention". Once these spells upper limits are bound, I think dealing with both the Generalist and the Specialist would be considerably easier.</p><p></p><p>2) Assuming 1 is done, I think your approach of evaluating the impacts of each school on the Macro Pillars and the Micro-Components of the Pillars as well should yield good results. Afterall, a wizards potency is comprised fundamentally by (i) the potency and variance of the spells at his disposal (which is inherent to the schools mechanical manifestation and the accompanying fiction), (ii) the total number of spells at his disposal, (iii) his ability to bulwark his arsenal with extra-arsenal charges, (iv) his ability to foresee the demands on the coming "work-day, (v) and his ability to "reset his spell-load". It seems an intuitive start to begin a proper evaluation with (i). That would be a very large task, to say the least, and would have to be "edition-specific", but it could be done.</p><p></p><p>3) In theory, a Specialist Wizard (outside of the Summoner...which WotC would do well in examining 5E's Summoner iteration very intensely) should have their "specialty pillar" potency receive a moderate bump while their inverse pillar receives a moderate dip.</p><p></p><p>4) I think I would be satisfied with hard-coded Divinations (even if their mean production is elevated while their upper bounds are constrained) and Teleportations/Transmutations constrained and then the final result of the Generalist Wizard fall somewhere between the Rogue/Thief and Bard GPA. The spread between their "Pillar GPA" is reasonable by my estimation.</p><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/kaiilurker.html" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/kaiilurker.html</a></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 5988987, member: 6696971"] This is quite a good post and there is so much relevant content to address that I don't feel I can snip any of it. I'm going to work my way through your points in a different chronology than you have devised in your post. 1) You are quite correct that dealing with these issues through spell mechanic manipulation will have inter-class reverberations that will affect specialists or other classes if spell lists are shared. Kaiilurker brought this point up upthread. If done, I think the best way of handling this would be (again...and clearly contentious) hard-coding some of the open-ended spells that function outside of the mechanics as "pillar conflict circumvention." These spells can actually be coded to be quite potent as there standard M.O. usage (eg decent bonuses to skill checks for Scrying or Arcana or Spellcraft or Knowledge (Planar) for binding and seeking answers from a summoned creature or creating a Teleportation Circle). The problem manifests when total pillar conflict circumvention is available through negotiation or leveraging open-ended mechanics with the DM. If the mechanics upper limits are more tightly bound then I am fine with the mean usage getting a boost, so long as a boost means "class-relevant interaction with the fiction that does not result in pillar conflict circumvention". Once these spells upper limits are bound, I think dealing with both the Generalist and the Specialist would be considerably easier. 2) Assuming 1 is done, I think your approach of evaluating the impacts of each school on the Macro Pillars and the Micro-Components of the Pillars as well should yield good results. Afterall, a wizards potency is comprised fundamentally by (i) the potency and variance of the spells at his disposal (which is inherent to the schools mechanical manifestation and the accompanying fiction), (ii) the total number of spells at his disposal, (iii) his ability to bulwark his arsenal with extra-arsenal charges, (iv) his ability to foresee the demands on the coming "work-day, (v) and his ability to "reset his spell-load". It seems an intuitive start to begin a proper evaluation with (i). That would be a very large task, to say the least, and would have to be "edition-specific", but it could be done. 3) In theory, a Specialist Wizard (outside of the Summoner...which WotC would do well in examining 5E's Summoner iteration very intensely) should have their "specialty pillar" potency receive a moderate bump while their inverse pillar receives a moderate dip. 4) I think I would be satisfied with hard-coded Divinations (even if their mean production is elevated while their upper bounds are constrained) and Teleportations/Transmutations constrained and then the final result of the Generalist Wizard fall somewhere between the Rogue/Thief and Bard GPA. The spread between their "Pillar GPA" is reasonable by my estimation. [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/members/kaiilurker.html"][/URL] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
The (Generalist) Rogue, Bard, and Wizard. One of these things is not like the other.
Top