D&D 5E (2024) The impact of reducing Ability Scores?

[MichaelSomething]

Most GM's have 2-5 players and the ratio of players who have never been a gm that have zero interest in being one to GM's is a gap with a pretty significant margin. That's the fatal flaw in wotc's whole 31% veto thing

Which is why I advocate that D&D should transition from a democracy into an oligarchy. That way, we Enworlders can ensure the game is played the way it's meant to be played.

 

[NotAYakk]

I’m not sure why you would think a slightly larger statistical effect on monks AC and DPR (ignoring all other benefits they have) is a greater consequence than the benefit I’m trying to achieve. I don’t think it is. I think it’s a minor statistical swing is probably balanced by other benefits they get and even if it isn’t that choice is theirs. I’m not publishing a campaign, I’m offering a curated campaign to my players.

The effect on monks is almost twice as large as the effect on fighters.

You are trying to weaken PCs. You weaken them by X.

As a side effect, you weaken monks by 1.75X.

If the 0.75X extra effect is a "minor statistical swing", then so was the original X. The point is the unintended consequence (making monks weaker) is almost as large as your intended consequence.

Maybe someone else will think about that idea when doing game modification: that you should try to make the intended consequences of your changes to games be much larger than the unintended consequences. And you should examine the unintended consequences and not discard them because your original choice wasn't based off numbers, but your gut.

You can do insane things to D&D type games, and as the game is mostly about sitting around and bullshitting, nothing really breaks. That is why lots of stupid rules keep working.

 

[TheSword]

The effect on monks is almost twice as large as the effect on fighters.

You are trying to weaken PCs. You weaken them by X.

As a side effect, you weaken monks by 1.75X.

If the 0.75X extra effect is a "minor statistical swing", then so was the original X. The point is the unintended consequence (making monks weaker) is almost as large as your intended consequence.

Maybe someone else will think about that idea when doing game modification: that you should try to make the intended consequences of your changes to games be much larger than the unintended consequences. And you should examine the unintended consequences and not discard them because your original choice wasn't based off numbers, but your gut.

You can do insane things to D&D type games, and as the game is mostly about sitting around and bullshitting, nothing really breaks. That is why lots of stupid rules keep working.

Well as I said, I don’t accept your maths, and don’t think Monks are disadvantaged twice as much because you should be averaging the penalties for comparison not multiplying them, and you have only looked at AC and damage and not mobility, resilience, flexibility etc.

Secondly the monk is one class out of what, fourteen. Neither does it particularly chime with the gothic horror vibes of the majority of Ravenloft. You can make it work of course, but I’m not going to lose any sleep because the monk is a little bit worse off. Which is already a very effective class as @tetrasodium said already. If you really felt the monk was suffering because of their point of damage and point of AC then you easily adjust that with magic items.

The goal was to make all PCs feel less heroic. If anything the change to the monk overdelivers this premise.

 

[Mecheon]

Secondly the monk is one class out of what, fourteen. Neither does it particularly chime with the gothic horror vibes of the majority of Ravenloft. You can make it work of course, but I’m not going to lose any sleep because the monk is a little bit worse off. Which is already a very effective class as @tetrasodium said already. If you really felt the monk was suffering because of their point of damage and point of AC then you easily adjust that with magic items.

Monks fit fine. Domains of Dread had an entire area based on A Chinese Ghost Story, AKA that movie where they just had a rap song on Taoism and it involves multiple action sequences of beating up evil spirits. Original I'Cath is a terrible domain, sure, but monk support is baked into the system

Genuinely, thanks to that being a Ravenloft inspiration? They fit Ravenloft better than most of the other classes. Certainly ages ahead of wizard

I also do disagree with monks being a strong class? No, no they're not that strong. Okay in combat and better than their previous incarnation, but they're a bit one note

The goal was to make all PCs feel less heroic. If anything the change to the monk overdelivers this premise.

You're really fighting the game and genre as a whole at that point. Frankly I'd say you'd be better off using another system if you want that feel, because being heroic is sort of baked into the blood of the system

Its just going to lead to folks powergaming you in fun and exciting ways. Plenty of ways to get around stats being low, you just depend on the old reliables instead of going for stats

 

[TheSword]

Monks fit fine. Domains of Dread had an entire area based on A Chinese Ghost Story, AKA that movie where they just had a rap song on Taoism and it involves multiple action sequences of beating up evil spirits. Original I'Cath is a terrible domain, sure, but monk support is baked into the system

Genuinely, thanks to that being a Ravenloft inspiration? They fit Ravenloft better than most of the other classes. Certainly ages ahead of wizard

Hence me saying most of Ravenloft. I have no problem with fighting monks. I just don’t build my life around them.

I also do disagree with monks being a strong class? No, no they're not that strong. Okay in combat and better than their previous incarnation, but they're a bit one note

It’s all relative but our experience differs

You're really fighting the game and genre as a whole at that point. Frankly I'd say you'd be better off using another system if you want that feel, because being heroic is sort of baked into the blood of the system

Its just going to lead to folks powergaming you in fun and exciting ways. Plenty of ways to get around stats being low, you just depend on the old reliables instead of going for stats

Of course that depends whether you have players that lean into the premise or not. Some people may find the premise of a 14 caster stat an unbearable burden. Others may just see it as part of a game.

It is a very small change to the system. Particularly based on the fact that rolling the dice is an acceptable alternative and that can clearly result in lower scores. As I said this would be one tool in the toolbox, along with restricting multi-classing. I find that solves 90% of players.