4E The Intelligent Fighter , Thibault's Circle.

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
One of the artificer subclass is a bit like the hexblade, but with Int...

(edit, I should mention that's in 5e)
Not sure how that relates to an Int encouraged fighter? Unless you think it could be readily reflavored in some fashion?

I am actually thinking justifying a decent secondary Intelligence is the target . And having it feel like the highly defended analytical kind of scary Thibault fencer. Where analysis of battlefield pattern and steadfast discipline is seen as key perhaps more than nimble movement.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
To wrap back to the original post, I *am* roleplaying a fighter who uses the Spanish style... and it's a dex-based melee fighter that uses a rapier and buckler and the battle-master subclass. It works very well with riposte and parry as his main maneuvres. He also took trip attack, and precise attack will be his next maneuvre.
I definitely like that 5e made a dex based fighter a standard thing although in 4e I would use a Rogue (lots of dangerous ripostes etc) or Ranger class for that.

Still bet your fighter has Int as a justified dump stat.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I definitely like that 5e made a dex based fighter a standard thing although in 4e I would use a Rogue (lots of dangerous ripostes etc) or Ranger class for that.

Still bet your fighter has Int as a justified dump stat.
My fighter is the smartest party member so... yes, I roleplay him using that style.

Incidentally, I use redrick roller to generate stats.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
My fighter is the smartest party member so...
And he uses it in combat for? I mean in 4e the answer would be quick thinking predictive defenses that avoid attacks including a significant 1/3 of saving throws (core combat elements)

And this thread has been largely pointing out ways to give even more.
 
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I definitely like that 5e made a dex based fighter a standard thing ...
It was a long time coming. I gave variant fighters a % DEX instead of STR back in the day - complete with maximums by race & sex. The 3e Finesse feat essentially taxed DEX fighters, and left them inferior.
Still bet your fighter has Int as a justified dump stat.
Not if it was random roll in order - just gets no benefit from it, as a fighter. Really, INT is a triffle lacklustre in 5e - though I feel knowledge skills can still be important.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The following shows the XML for loading the Battle Ready class feature in to the offline Character Builder. And yup it works ;) it also takes a modification of the base class.

<RulesElement name ="Battle Ready" type="Class Feature" internal-id="ID_LAD_CLASS_FEATURE_BR1234" source="Martial Power III" revision-date="6/16/2019" >
<Flavor>Most people react to the onset of a fight for you it is always part of the plan.</Flavor>
<Prereqs> Fighter </Prereqs>
<print-prereqs> Fighter </print-prereqs>
<specific name="Tier"> Heroic </specific>
<specific name="Short Description"> You may substitute Mental Attributes for Dexterity in Initiative </specific>
<specific name="Special" />
<specific name="type" />
<specific name="Associated Power Info" />
<specific name="Associated Powers" />
<rules>
<statadd name="Initiative" value="+Intelligence modifier" type="Ability" />
<statadd name="Initiative" value="+Wisdom modifier" type="Ability" />
<statadd name="Initiative" value="+Charisma modifier" type="Ability" />
</rules>
You may use your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma or Dexterity modifier when rolling initiative.
</RulesElement>
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
It was a long time coming. I gave variant fighters a % DEX instead of STR back in the day - complete with maximums by race & sex. The 3e Finesse feat essentially taxed DEX fighters, and left them inferior.
Arguably in 4e a Dex Fighter til Slayer came out was basically a Ranger/Rogue Roleplaying baggage ensued. (although very flexible baggage) with honorable mention to certain builds which have it secondary.

Not if it was random roll in order - just gets no benefit from it, as a fighter. Really, INT is a triffle lacklustre in 5e - though I feel knowledge skills can still be important.
I said "justified" dump stat. EVEN if you forego control, abilities that work in one arena are enhancing the other as well. Statistically your attributes are more broadly valuable by being the mage or other classes as few or none of the warriors combat stats help outside of that singular context its not just about choosing to dump.

I have some 5e ideas for significantly fixing that and leveraging skills in combat maneuvers (no reason investigation cannot be right along side, insight and intimidation/deception as a means to gain "free" superiority die).
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
A subjective feel : Battle Ready makes creating a fighter feel slightly different like a tax on something a fighter should just have has been lifted. It also acknowledges that initiative can involve deciding/thinking and agressing faster which may be more reliable than reacting faster.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
And a custom encounter power for the The Intelligent Fighter

DanceOfCircles.png

I considered making it against Reflexes.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Multi-classing ;)
Much better possibility than I thought actually (but it binds a lot of flavor things things like spell casting and a pet into the class too); The savant is closer but has a bad bad thing it takes all the way to level 6 before getting Brains over Brawn. (making it fundamentally Mad for basic functions ie attacking up until that point err oops)
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Personally, I would rather have intelligence give a bit of something to everyone instead of adding another int dependent class. If int saves were common, it might have helped...

The "ideal" solution would be skill point bonuses (as per 3.x) but this wouldn't work well in 5e...
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Personally, I would rather have intelligence give a bit of something to everyone instead of adding another int dependent class. If int saves were common, it might have helped...
Yes that is less of an issue in 4e, potentially at least for saves and armor class using quick predictive thinking (Int) is enabled for those in a solid way. Some I have seen advocate bringing back Fort/Ref/Wil for 5e instead of having mostly unused saves. Perhaps they could allow initiative based on intelligence.

While in 4e the foundation of value "in combat" is covered, they could have made more skills which were intelligence based out of combat (Engineering and Investigation maybe). And they could have had more powers and abilities like some I am posting in here for various broader classes to exploit intelligence in class specific ways. Similarly in 5e they could put tactician maneuvers in the Battlemaster (for example)
 
The "ideal" solution would be skill point bonuses (as per 3.x) but this wouldn't work well in 5e...
Niether a 3e nor a 5e thread, but no bringing back a problematic mechanic so INT can add to it, not ideal.

Also not as pressing an issue in 4e, where INT isn't disfavored the way it is in 5e.
 
Yes that is less of an issue in 4e, potentially at least for saves and armor class using quick predictive thinking (Int) is enabled for those in a solid way. Some I have seen advocate bringing back Fort/Ref/Wil for 5e instead of having mostly unused saves. Perhaps they could allow initiative based on intelligence.

While in 4e the foundation of value "in combat" is covered, they could have made more skills which were intelligence based out of combat (Engineering and Investigation maybe).
There were 17 skills, INT applied to 3 of them: prettymuch exactly a fair share.
And they could have had more powers and abilities like some I am posting in here for various broader classes to exploit intelligence in class specific ways. Similarly in 5e they could put tactician maneuvers in the Battlemaster (for example)
INT was very worthwhile for a warlord because it powered some commanding presence choices and power riders, the sane was true of other classes.
It's a proven-effective mechanism.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
There were 17 skills, INT applied to 3 of them: prettymuch exactly a fair share.
Compare to Wisdom however which got way too much AND strength and con got only 1 a piece. While I would still change Dungeoneering to Engineering and make it intelligence based - that wouldn't help anything else.

Arcana as a skill feels like its "just for magical types" subjectively I suppose it makes 3 feel like 2. But is a component of multi-classing (or making a hero who senses and understands magic without real training)
making it very useful.

INT was very worthwhile for a warlord because it powered some commanding presence choices and power riders, the sane was true of other classes.
It's a proven-effective mechanism.
AND could be more true for more classes such as the ideas presented in this thread. Oh yeah I knew there were int items for rogues too but wasn't entirely certain how much the rogue had and assumed they were for conman style not ninja. (guess con-man got charisma too)
 
Compare to Wisdom however which got way too much AND strength and con got only 1 a piece. While I would still change Dungeoneering to Engineering and make it intelligence based - that wouldn't help anything else.
Yeah, CON is a bit of an uberstat in 4e, because it adds to 1st level hps, and surges, which scale, so it getting the fuzzy end on skills is one thing. STR getting the same treatment was an issue, but breaking Athletics out into more skills would hardly be helpful.

Arcana as a skill feels like its "just for magical types" subjectively I suppose it makes 3 feel like 2.
It easily is an over-valued skill: it's the knowledge skill for three origins, for instance, for many rituals, and for questions about dragons, magic, items, &c. You could split all the knowledge of magic & rituals into Spellcraft, for instance, and Arcana would still be a solid knowledge skill. But, y'know, everyone getting Arcana for free would just get spellcraft too...

AND could be more true for more classes such as the ideas presented in this thread. Oh yeah I knew there were int items for rogues too but wasn't entirely certain how much the rogue had and assumed they were for conman style not ninja. (guess con-man got charisma too)
I don't recall the Rogue's uses for INT, but, for instance, the Warlock was INT secondary, a notorious V class.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I don't recall the Rogue's uses for INT, but, for instance, the Warlock was INT secondary, a notorious V class.
Rogue had an at-will that let you shift INT distance and basically disappear the Shadowy Rogue might even be THE batman rogue build instead of the Ninja as I have been calling it.

That was a fully functional build if you wanted an Intelligent Secondary type. I posted a loose example but now that I think about it instead of building a fencer flavor I need to make it batman with shuriken.

I could give that rogue the martial technique so he has knife hand strike at minimum ;)
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Yeah, CON is a bit of an uberstat in 4e, because it adds to 1st level hps, and surges, which scale, so it getting the fuzzy end on skills is one thing. STR getting the same treatment was an issue, but breaking Athletics out into more skills would hardly be helpful.
Hence why I don't find myself coming up with good solutions for those. Getting more surges means not only having that staying power in combat but also an extra amount of effort you can apply to skill challenge use of a skill or to a martial practice. It could be seen as fuel for ALL the other skills and not really needing other skill related value.

5e Con keeps on keeping on for giving more and more hit points... ie it scales there too.
 
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