4E The Intelligent Fighter , Thibault's Circle.

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
(essentials characters with stupidly enhanced basic attacks would not have access to this, ptooey)
 
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Yaarel

Adventurer
5e is a million miles from doing anything like this.
The main reason the Intelligence Fighter sucks, is because the Intelligence ability sucks.

If the abilities reorganize
• Strength-Constitution
• Dexterity-Athletics
• Intelligence-Perception
• Charisma-Wisdom

then Intelligence-Perception becomes a valuable asset to invest in.

Then, the Fighter can easily build as Charisma-Wisdom (military leader, folk hero) or as Intelligence-Perception (bodyguard, scout, surveillance, military academic, strategist, tactician, skill technician, engineer).

The solution is to review the ability score system.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
The abilities are good as they are.

Intelligence is great, it just needs more explicit support for using the int skills for more than recalling information, and more archetypes that use it.

And 5e has all the room ya need for this archetype.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The main reason the Intelligence Fighter sucks, is because the Intelligence ability sucks.
I grant it is pretty much a dump stat for anyone not casting wizard spells. However In 4e it could be leveraged for many more things it seemed to encompass ability to think fast and predict and so useful for things very combat valuable if that is your characters style..
 
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The solution is to review the ability score system.
I know that's a pet project of yours, but, no. I mean, it's /a/ solution, just sorta an extreme one.
I grant it is pretty much a dump stat for any non-wizard. However In 4e it could be leveraged for many more things it seemed to encompass ability to think fast and predict and so useful for things very combat valuable if that is your characters style..
Sure, in 5e, INT is prettymuch there for the Wizard, AT, & EK, and not much else. In 4e, though, it was a sorta 2nd-class DEX, and it's skills often mattered, so an INT-secondary build was perfectly viable. The Tactical Warlord stood as a sort of tactical 'smart fighter' from release.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Sure, in 5e, INT is prettymuch there for the Wizard, AT, & EK, and not much else. In 4e, though, it was a sorta 2nd-class DEX, and it's skills often mattered, so an INT-secondary build was perfectly viable. The Tactical Warlord stood as a sort of tactical 'smart fighter' from release.
Yeh it is arguably possible in 4e out of the gate ... What the Thibault build does is hit it home with the defender role as well.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I think I have figured out a method to let this really pop... and its something akin to how the swordmage can take a feat to get a spell book.

The int 13 fighter type could get a Book of Techniques. For the most part like a spell book however perhaps it comes with abilities that allow access to the alternates in the repertoire. Perhaps

inspired strike at will standard action: make a basic attack with int/wis modifier instead of strength and select an alternate encounter power from your repertoire that you can now use during this combat. Flavor wise "reduced to your most fundamental ability you mind reaches for something better"

While sure obsessing and studying your book in the morning might explain swapping out a power but.... the above seems better flavor.
I am working on the flavors of this do I call it "Student of Martial Ways" or "Educated Fighter" or "Science of the Swordsman" or "Thibaults Science", I am leaning towards the first two.

There is also whether to split this into 2 feats effect one for encounters like I have described with an at-will inspired strike gained as described above and one which governs dailies.

The second adds an encounter power that is highly restricted in function like inspired strike is except enabling a daily you arent currently focusing on this fight.

AND for more confusing terminology but which is better flavor you do not prepare exploits I have been writing this as focus on them ... Help I am way over using that term. See also using focus as the term used for martial techniques to ummm equip them (only some of them require it)... and the use of Martial Focus as how many requiring focus you can equip.

D&D does have a history and almost a tradition of using "level" that way
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
With the Artificer coming soon, Int is getting stronger.

I do wish that the Inquisitive Rogue had more support for Int skills, though.

It helps that in my games, there are tangible things to do with Arcana, Nature, and Religion, and useful things for History, and Investigation is very important. I have experimented with adding Riddle, which is a sort of Int based social skill, but honestly it’s hard to remember that it’s there.

I’d love to see a Fighter or Rogue that has Unarmored Defense: Intelligence, and has maneuver style widgets that use Int.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
With the Artificer coming soon, Int is getting stronger.

I do wish that the Inquisitive Rogue had more support for Int skills, though.

It helps that in my games, there are tangible things to do with Arcana, Nature, and Religion, and useful things for History, and Investigation is very important. I have experimented with adding Riddle, which is a sort of Int based social skill, but honestly it’s hard to remember that it’s there.

I’d love to see a Fighter or Rogue that has Unarmored Defense: Intelligence, and has maneuver style widgets that use Int.
Creating subclasses/archetypes which play off of non-caster use of Int as secondary is certainly a pretty doable route to supporting this. But I think since doing so you are fighting against the 5e design you have to do more.

Artificer is one of the classes wanting that Engineering skill I am implementing
(I am actually putting the skill Engineering in the 4e character builder)

I think that having more skills that play off of Int such as Investigation is a minor nod towards not-magic int use in 5e - I say minor because of elements of the system do not seem to give skills much potence. The 4e skills via skill challenge and virtue of everyone having significant advancement in them and skill powers and built in functions made them as potent as spells. So even transporting Investigation back to 4e would give it more chops :) though it would take some effort to figure out / insert all the support
 
With the Artificer coming soon, Int is getting stronger.
The Artificer came out in 2009. INT is fine, it adds to solid skills, and to AC/REF. DEX edges it out, though, so there's not much impetus to invest in it /unless/ you get some secondary-stat benefits, like the Warlord does. It'd be a matter of throwing some of those to the Fighter, which'd probably mean alternate class features, the way it can swap from WIS secondary to DEX secondary, for instance.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The Artificer came out in 2009. INT is fine, it adds to solid skills, and to AC/REF. DEX edges it out, though, so there's not much impetus to invest in it /unless/ you get some secondary-stat benefits, like the Warlord does. It'd be a matter of throwing some of those to the Fighter, which'd probably mean alternate class features, the way it can swap from WIS secondary to DEX secondary, for instance.
He is referring to 5e
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I am working on the flavors of this do I call it "Student of Martial Ways" or "Educated Fighter" or "Science of the Swordsman" or "Thibaults Science", I am leaning towards the first two.

There is also whether to split this into 2 feats effect one for encounters like I have described with an at-will inspired strike gained as described above and one which governs dailies.

The second adds an encounter power that is highly restricted in function like inspired strike is except enabling a daily you arent currently focusing on this fight.

AND for more confusing terminology but which is better flavor you do not prepare exploits I have been writing this as focus on them ... Help I am way over using that term. See also using focus as the term used for martial techniques to ummm equip them (only some of them require it)... and the use of Martial Focus as how many requiring focus you can equip.

D&D does have a history and almost a tradition of using "level" that way
Going with "Educated Fighter" for the feat name
I am thinking to not separate into 2 feats ... the one feat will only provide the one at-will (not replacing your at-wills since it has a feat cost and a repertoire including dailies and encounter powers... shame on me for not including utilities but they seem like something different - argue me out of it if you like.

But this broad use of the word focus almost makes sense, honest it does.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
In 4e, it'd've been a simple matter of feats and/or a feature to switch the WIS bonus to OAs and the DEX references of many powers over to INT.
OK coming back to this reference.

I am looking at higher level powers and while I didnt like the Swap outs for lower ones as they assumed two weapons in many cases.... I am seeing others with Dex sub elements that do not assume that additionally many of them have names that would be fine for the Intelligence variant.

I could go through them and add Dex references actually without it being over disruptive honestly or make it a class feature that fighter powers using dex can be replaced with quick thinking and predictive application of intelligence.

Either way since Thibaults is both a duo weapon and the one hand weapon possibility... that might be good to do accross the board.
 
You want INT as a better combat ability? Maybe someone needs to just invent a ritual which grants an INT-based bonus to attacks or defenses. It would be somewhat expensive and work for one fight, but you'd have to cast it ahead of time (say it has a 4 hour casting time). This would provide a nice strategic thinker kind if option, and it would fit well with a fighter, warlord, etc. Make it somehow enhance a fighter's class features (like CC for example) and that would make it much more fighter-specific.
There are other things you can do once you have a good INT, like Wizard Apprentice Theme (a very nice one) etc. Not going to be the most stupid optimized thing ever, but your smart fighter is not gimpy.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
You want INT as a better combat ability? Maybe someone needs to just invent a ritual which grants an INT-based bonus to attacks or defenses. It would be somewhat expensive and work for one fight, but you'd have to cast it ahead of time (say it has a 4 hour casting time). This would provide a nice strategic thinker kind if option, and it would fit well with a fighter, warlord, etc. Make it somehow enhance a fighter's class features (like CC for example) and that would make it much more fighter-specific.
There are other things you can do once you have a good INT, like Wizard Apprentice Theme (a very nice one) etc. Not going to be the most stupid optimized thing ever, but your smart fighter is not gimpy.
Reminds me of the hunters mind thing which I am making into a practice .... It was in a novel I read a while back where the character went into a trance state, which while it was going his perception was off grid no impairment due to foliage nothing, no range penalties nothing .... one duration limit is make a discipline check to hold the mind state... or spend a healing surge if that check fails.generally the check might be called for by you take damage or try to do something unrelated to the hunt.
 
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