D&D 5E (2014) The Revised Fighter, Barbarian & Rogue (Please help with the Rogue!)

[HabakkukVIII]

Because my players and I had been dissatisfied with the 5e's martial classes for years, I wrote a homebrew versions of the Fighter, Barbarian & Rogue. My goals with these versions are:

• Options > Buffs. I think making smart choices to solve problems is what makes any game fun, and so I wanted to offer features that offer new options on your turn, rather than passive bonuses to the options I already have.
• At Will > Resource Limited. I think that the simplest way to guarantee that a player always has options is to rarely (if ever) make a feature unavailable, and so I wanted to offer weak at-will features (think "martial cantrips") rather than strong resource-limited features (think "martial smites and spells")
• Mundane > Magical. I'm a huge fan of magic-free characters. I like the idea of an "underdog" who can overcome magical forces and otherworldly monsters using nothing but strength, skill and willpower. And so, besides one subclass, I did not offer any magical features whatsoever.
• Stick to the Theme. Each of the three martial classes has its own distinct theme, which it should fill completely & which the others shouldn't touch
  • A Fighter is any warrior who is extraordinary because of technical skill and tactical wit.
  • A Barbarian is any warrior who is extraordinary because of raw power of body and mind.
  • A Rogue is any warrior who is extraordinary because of underhanded tricks that create and seize circumstantial advantages.

I'm thrilled with how the Fighter turned out. I'm also quite happy with the Barbarian, though I'd like to brainstorm more subclasses if I can.

What I'd like is help brainstorming Rogue subclasses. Because it's easy to come up with underhanded tricks that apply to one enemy at a time, it's very easy to think of single-target striker and single-target disabler subclasses. But I'm struggling to come up with any sort of AoE-oriented, area controlling, or ally-supporting mechanics. Some loose ideas I have are:

• A bomb-planting saboteur whose bombs take 1 full round to explode, and hence can be evaded or even thrown back by enemies. The subclass might revolve around not just remaining hidden, but also hiding the bombs.
• A poisoner whose repertoire includes lingering gases that discourage enemies from entering or encourage them to move, as well as instantaneous blasts that harm or nerf enemies.
• A trapmaker who sets trip wires, pressure plates &c around the battlefield, triggering all sorts of weapon or item-based effects

But all of these ideas have one thing in common: relying too much on expendable resources to have options every single turn. Any thoughts?

 

[Mistwell]

To start, since you're keeping a lot of the same basic structure of the existing rogue but just adding to it, I think an adjustment is probably called for. Based on pretty extensive analysis from a few hard nosed optimization wonks (which I can link to if you like), it seems the sneak attack progression for rogues is slightly off what they should be relative to other martial characters.

Apparently the game designers already provide the fix, in an odd way. And that fix is built into the True Strike cantrip of 5.5e (or almost any attack cantrip really).

In other words, Sneak Attack should increase by one die at the following levels: levels 5 (1d6), 11 (2d6), and 17 (3d6).

So the progression should be: Level 1 1d6, 3 2d6, 5 4d6, 7 5d6, 9 6d6, 11 8d6, 13 9d6, 15 10d6, 17 12d6, 19 13d6.

That will fix the damage aspect of the rogue to be in line with Monks, Barbarians, Rangers, Paladins, and Fights (roughly).

The second fix is already in the 5.5e version of the game, though you seem to have left it out of your re-design which is sort of using that existing fix. And that is the new Cunning Strike and Weapon Mastery mechanics rogues now get.

At level 5 Rogues get Cunning Strike, which lets them pay a die (or more than one die, depending), to do some of the things you're interested in doing. That being Poison, Trip, Withdraw, and eventually Daze, Knock Out, or Obscure. Adding more options to Cunning Strike, similar to what you've done with Talents, seems like it might work.

Then your Archetypes are just...more subclasses.

 

[HabakkukVIII]

First of all, thanks for the reply!

To start, since you're keeping a lot of the same basic structure of the existing rogue but just adding to it, I think an adjustment is probably called for. Based on pretty extensive analysis from a few hard nosed optimization wonks (which I can link to if you like), it seems the sneak attack progression for rogues is slightly off what they should be relative to other martial characters.

Oh, that's fine by me. The only Rogue subclass that I would expect to deal especially good damage would be the Assassin, so no need for a class-wide fix.

The second fix is already in the 5.5e version of the game, though you seem to have left it out of your re-design which is sort of using that existing fix. And that is the new Cunning Strike and Weapon Mastery mechanics rogues now get.

I'm aware of & dislike both mechanics, for a few reasons.

Cunning Strike procs off of Sneak Attack, & hence drives Rogues in general towards the Assassin's niche of an attack specialist. My Assassin's Maim feature fills a similar niche (giving up SA dice to inflict conditions), but involves giving up more dice to inflict more dramatic conditions & make a more defined choice between dealing damage or disabling, rather than the sort of "have your cake and eat it too" situation of low cost Cunning Strikes that encourage players to spam.

Weapon Mastery, likewise, represents a sort of straightforward Fighting Skills only fitting for a Fighter, and does so using small bonuses attached to your Attack action rather than powerful alternatives to that action. The result is martials who still spam identical attacks each turn, only with a small rider, and Rogues in particular who don't need to adopt an underhanded playstyle to function.

Then your Archetypes are just...more subclasses.

Yes. That's what the post is about.

I'd like help brainstorming Rogue subclasses for this revision project. Though it's easy to come up with underhanded tricks that apply to one enemy at a time, I'm struggling to come up with any sort of AoE-oriented, area controlling, or ally-supporting mechanics.

 

[Kobold Stew]

To get ideas for the rogue, you may want to think about ideal builds. One problem with the Rogue in 5.5 is it really needs to key off of Dexterity. It's possible to build a Strength Rogue (with a low AC) or an Intelligence Rogue (Arcane Trickster using True Strike), but it is no longer a truly versatile class.

So for ideas, I would think in terms of ways to build different kinds of Rogue, so that they all do not have the same mean and hungry look.

Strength. Make a Thug. SA damage to creatures you are grappling. A way to avoid damage that is not dependent on Dexterity. (Proficiency with Med armor or shields would be one way). Something that fights differently than a Monk or a Fighter, but can get in there and hold his own. Using Strength for Intimidation as a default. Sneak attack not needing finesse weapons (or even just able to use clubs) -- again, you have this already.

Intelligence. We've got the Arcane Trickster for a magical build. What would a non-magical build look like? Maybe a Mastermind. Someone with tactical acumen that enhances other characters in combat (Help action at a range of 30', affecting more creatures as you level up, say).

Charisma. Rogues used to be a go-to for party face, but even that is largely eroded now. What would a Con-man be? Heavy on Deception, obviously, perhaps with lingering effects (maybe not technically charm, though? It has to be possible to con an elf). Your Hustler talent does some of this already.

Wisdom. This is less obvious, but it could go in many ways. If there were a pet subclass, this could be it. Dodge as a bonus action. Utilize as a bonus action. A wisdom rogue somehow always gets the drop.

Al three of these last could be made combat effective with the True Strike Spell, but perhaps a mundane equivalent could be introduced.

That would be my approach. Now some of these might be ab le to be covered with your "talent" feature, separate form the archetype. That would be great, particularly if they allowed a wider range of builds -- so how each of the talents helps the separate archetypes you design -- the more viable combinations, the better the design, in my book.

Finally, you might want to consider giving a second background to all Rogues at level 1. This is something they toyed with in an early iteration before the 2014 rules were published, but they dropped. It was a great idea. But only a rogue should be able to be a Noble Criminal, or an Acolyte Wayfarer, or a Soldier Sage. Working with 2024 rules, that would give you a second origin feat and two skills. Rather than start with 4 skills, you'd get 2 and the two from your second background. You wouldn't get the Ability adjustments but you would have additional ability scores that could be enahnced (soa Sailor Scribe could improve Str, Dex, Int, or Wis but still only the same +2/+1 [and this would only benefit those not using custom backgrounds]).

If the rogue started only with a second background and 1d6 SA damage, that would be enough.

Hope this helps.

 

[Johngernaut]

• A bomb-planting saboteur whose bombs take 1 full round to explode, and hence can be evaded or even thrown back by enemies. The subclass might revolve around not just remaining hidden, but also hiding the bombs.
• A poisoner whose repertoire includes lingering gases that discourage enemies from entering or encourage them to move, as well as instantaneous blasts that harm or nerf enemies.
• A trapmaker who sets trip wires, pressure plates &c around the battlefield, triggering all sorts of weapon or item-based effects

But all of these ideas have one thing in common: relying too much on expendable resources to have options every single turn. Any thoughts?

Yeah hello, there's no way for a human being to do "AOE damage" without items or equipment. Like what are they going to do, fart and call it the cloudkill spell? There's already a rogue subclass that is perfect for using items and that is the good old Thief because of their Fast Hands feature. All you have to do is give them items, no new subclass needed.

 

[HabakkukVIII]

Yeah hello, there's no way for a human being to do "AOE damage" without items or equipment.

I didn't suggest that a human being should do AoE damage without items or equipment. Read more carefully.

There's already a rogue subclass that is perfect for using items and that is the good old Thief because of their Fast Hands feature. All you have to do is give them items, no new subclass needed.

The goal is not to create a Rogue subclass that is perfect for using items. Read more carefully.

 

[Zardnaar]

Most of that looks like magic or equipment. Take your pick.
. Work out how much damage or the effect, how often and go from there.

3pp and BG 3 has some things in it.

 

[HabakkukVIII]

Most of that looks like magic or equipment. Take your pick.

This is a bit laconic, so I'm responding under the assumption that you mean something like "most of the roles that you're trying to fill (such as AoE, area control, support) would need to be filled using either magic- or equipment-focused subclasses".

If so, I agree! And I've already taken my pick: equipment. The hard part is actually writing out effects that are balanced, resource-minimal (ideally resource-free) and Roguish.

Work out how much damage or the effect, how often and go from there.

That's the hard part, which I'm requesting help with

3pp and BG 3 has some things in it.

Do you have any specific examples? I'm not aware of any subclasses unique to BG3, for instance.

 

[Zardnaar]

This is a bit laconic, so I'm responding under the assumption that you mean something like "most of the roles that you're trying to fill (such as AoE, area control, support) would need to be filled using either magic- or equipment-focused subclasses".

If so, I agree! And I've already taken my pick: equipment. The hard part is actually writing out effects that are balanced, resource-minimal (ideally resource-free) and Roguish.

That's the hard part, which I'm requesting help with

Do you have any specific examples? I'm not aware of any subclasses unique to BG3, for instance.

BG3 has equipment.

Its grenades were 3d4+9 force damage. Thief could throw them as bonus action.

Probably added a bonus d8 or something to thrown boom things. Claymore mine is a piercing burning hands.

If its a magical effect xyz per short rest.

Smokepowder Bomb - bg3.wiki

Smokepowder Bomb is a Consumable (Grenade) item which can be thrown and explodes on impact.

bg3.wiki

50gp in tabletop. Bonus action throwing lvl 3, extra damage 9 (probably 2d6 or 2d8).

Brings damage close to other strikers ad some of its AoE.

BG3 poison damage inflicts poison condition and d4,d6,d8 or d10 extra damage. One paralyzes.

Trapmaker is harder. You would have to write them. Compare with spells like entangle or web I suppose. Maybe 1/3rd artificer subclass.

Another way is use the thief with a variant lvl 9 ability (extra damage).

In esting our thief has a wand of magic missiles and an enspelled cure staff (6/day).

Said explosion coukd also deal damage equal to sneak attack. Probably daily effect that one of its bonus action.

Normal boom. 3d4+9
Big boom. Sneak attack damage.
Bigger boom. Smokepowder barrel.

Smokepowder Barrel - bg3.wiki

Smokepowder Barrel is a common Consumable that can be  thrown and explodes if ignited. It creates a highly flammable surface when broken.

bg3.wiki

Biggest boom

File:Runepowder Bomb Faded.png

bg3.wiki

 

[HabakkukVIII]

BG3 has equipment [...] If its a magical effect xyz per short rest.

Ah, I see.

I think you've misunderstood what I'm asking for help with: brainstorming AoE, area control, and support-oriented Rogue subclasses with four design constraints:

1. Focus on alternatives uses of the Rogue's action instead of bonuses on top of it
2. Offer at-will features of moderate power rather than resource-limited features of high power
3. No magic whatsoever
4. Features should create or capitalize on unfair advantages, such that the Rogue must fight underhandedly.