Dragonlance The Second Generation/Dragons of Summer Flame Omnibus inquiry
- Thread starter Darth Fistandantilus
- Start date
GreyLord
Legend
It validates that it did occur...yes, but then the events of the Trilogy change the past, so they have to go back and correct things and how it is corrected seems to indicate that the future afterwards is now different. It's been changed.
Due to these changes, it would appear to be very hard for the 5th age as we saw done to actually happen again.
GreyLord
Legend
Mostly, but not quite....
Just enough for it to be restored to a certain amount, but not enough (if you read what happens to certain things) for it to actually be exactly the same...
Dragonhelm
Knight of Solamnia
When that little bit of Chaos escaped the Graygem, everything comes into question. Yes, the timeline was restored, but now the Graygem is imprisoned in such a way that it cannot escape. Of course, the power of Chaos is held inside the Graygem, so who knows?
The point is, the future at this point is, once again, unwritten. Dragons of Summer Flame and the Age of Mortals might have progressed just as it had previously, or it may not. It's really left up to the reader to decide for themselves.
From my POV as a Dragonlance designer and someone who has worked with fandom for over 25 years, I can say that this is good for the setting. Essential reading for the current timeline has been brought down from roughly 20 novels to the original "Holy Six" (Chronicles and Legends). It's a much easier buy-in. The current timeline is now a few years after the War of the Lance, which is the most popular era for Dragonlance. There are no more issues with 4 types of magic, or the so-called "Second Cataclysm", or the perception of the gods abandoning the world again, when it was really stolen by Takhisis.
All of this doesn't mean that we can't still enjoy the novels and game materials from the Age of Mortals. I enjoyed much of it, especially during the era of Sovereign Press/Margaret Weis Productions. What it does mean is that we got a type of reset that we need to breathe new life into this classic setting.
The point is, the future at this point is, once again, unwritten. Dragons of Summer Flame and the Age of Mortals might have progressed just as it had previously, or it may not. It's really left up to the reader to decide for themselves.
From my POV as a Dragonlance designer and someone who has worked with fandom for over 25 years, I can say that this is good for the setting. Essential reading for the current timeline has been brought down from roughly 20 novels to the original "Holy Six" (Chronicles and Legends). It's a much easier buy-in. The current timeline is now a few years after the War of the Lance, which is the most popular era for Dragonlance. There are no more issues with 4 types of magic, or the so-called "Second Cataclysm", or the perception of the gods abandoning the world again, when it was really stolen by Takhisis.
All of this doesn't mean that we can't still enjoy the novels and game materials from the Age of Mortals. I enjoyed much of it, especially during the era of Sovereign Press/Margaret Weis Productions. What it does mean is that we got a type of reset that we need to breathe new life into this classic setting.
plecostomus
Adventurer
The conversations in this thread prompted me to start reading the Dragonlance books. I researched the setting and reviewed the existing modules last year to run a game, but I have no preexisting history with the books.
I was hoping for audiobook versions because I have some other paper books on-deck (my copy of The Tapestry of Fate comes in this week), but when I checked the audiobooks there were comments that the text gets abridged.
But, I do have about 30 Dragonlance EPUBs that I bought in a Humble Bundle last year. I'm not sure I will read all of these, but Dragons of Autumn Twilight is here, so I'm starting with that. Currently on Chapter 5 as I began reading yesterday.
Thanks Dragonlance fans.
I was hoping for audiobook versions because I have some other paper books on-deck (my copy of The Tapestry of Fate comes in this week), but when I checked the audiobooks there were comments that the text gets abridged.
But, I do have about 30 Dragonlance EPUBs that I bought in a Humble Bundle last year. I'm not sure I will read all of these, but Dragons of Autumn Twilight is here, so I'm starting with that. Currently on Chapter 5 as I began reading yesterday.
Thanks Dragonlance fans.
Darth Fistandantilus
Explorer
If you pay attention to what happens to certain key elements, it's clear that the timeline has been fully restored, allowing The Second Generation and Dragons of Summer Flame to unfold exactly as they originally did. Astinus explains this to Tas at the end of Dragons of Eternity.
I understand that some people want to interpret the Destinies trilogy in a way that rewrites the timeline to erase Dragons of Summer Flame and, by extension, the Fifth Age. However, that's simply not how Destinies is presented. The trilogy is written in a way that initially leads the reader to believe the timeline has been erased, but then subtly hints suggesting otherwise. If the intention was truly to erase that timeline, there would be little reason for the authors to make certain choices in the first place. The ending ultimately resolves the question when Astinus confirms with Tas.
LuisCarlos17f
Legend
I feel an inner conflict or contradiction because I don't dislike the characters from the next generation but I am not confortable with the fith age. If I wanted to play a Dragonlance campaign the complete timeline could have been rewritten, for example adding mystic or psionic powers discovered by the seekers during the age of despair.
My idea is there are several timelines, and ones where the summer of chaos didn't happened (yet?). Other timeline is "chuanshu" (chuanyue/isekai subgenre where the character "travels" within a fiction work like a novel, movie or videogame) where visitors from other world, and who knows the "canon" future appeared and their arrival can alter the plot (Do you know the miniserie "Lost in Austin"?).
If I want to play a campaign set in Dragonlance I would rather to play a "reboot" to enjoy more creative freedom and allow room for possible surprised for players who know the plots of all the novels thanks wikis.
Other idea is Vecna created his own version of Krynn as a personal revengue against Krynnian pantheon (Don't ask me the reason but I suspect other wicked conspirated sabotaged by heroes). This uchrony is showed in the short story: "There Is Another Shore You Know, Upon The Other Side". Here there is other details and this alternate-reality will be invaded by the Vodoni empire (a Spelljammer faction).
My idea is there are several timelines, and ones where the summer of chaos didn't happened (yet?). Other timeline is "chuanshu" (chuanyue/isekai subgenre where the character "travels" within a fiction work like a novel, movie or videogame) where visitors from other world, and who knows the "canon" future appeared and their arrival can alter the plot (Do you know the miniserie "Lost in Austin"?).
If I want to play a campaign set in Dragonlance I would rather to play a "reboot" to enjoy more creative freedom and allow room for possible surprised for players who know the plots of all the novels thanks wikis.
Other idea is Vecna created his own version of Krynn as a personal revengue against Krynnian pantheon (Don't ask me the reason but I suspect other wicked conspirated sabotaged by heroes). This uchrony is showed in the short story: "There Is Another Shore You Know, Upon The Other Side". Here there is other details and this alternate-reality will be invaded by the Vodoni empire (a Spelljammer faction).
Darth Fistandantilus
Explorer
If you're a new reader, don't read this post. I WILL be spoiling...
"The Decider placed the spike's tip at the gem's flaw."
This flaw was put into the Greygem by Dougan when he set it in the necklace in Dragons of Deceit. This is the only explaination we get as to where this flaw came from. Dragons of Summer Flame doesn't explain it. The most straightforward conclusion is that the events of Destinies are part of the same timeline that leads to Dragons of Summer Flame.
The only real thing left to the reader is what happened to the Graygem after the end of Dragons of Eternity. Everything else lines up remarkably well with the established timeline.
We know that in the summer of 383 AC, the Irda split the Graygem, unleashing Chaos and begin the Chaos War. That's established in Dragons of Summer Flame and reaffirmed in Destinies. We know that in the previous summer in 382 AC, the Irda stole the Graygem from a simple-minded fisherman who had found it washed ashore. That's also straight from Dragons of Summer Flame.
Going back to a few months in the spring of 382 AC, Tanin, Sturm, and Palin Majere, along with Dougan Redhammer and a group of gnomes, rediscovered the Graygem on the Isle of Gargath. We're told in The Second Generation that the Graygem had already been on the island for two years. That places its arrival on Gargath in 380 AC.
The next known appearance of the Graygem before that is in 359 AC at the end of Dragons of Eternity, when it is sealed inside the Infinity Box and cast into "a magical vortex that is deeper and vaster than time."
That leaves a 21-year gap between 359 and 380 AC. The novels don't tell us exactly what happened during that period, but they do provide clues.
In The Second Generation, Dougan explains that, according to the dwarven story, Reorx gifted the Graygem to the dwarves before it was stolen. Dragons of Deceit effectively tells that story, explaining how the Graygem came to be in Thorbardin in the first place and how it was ultimately stolen by Destina. That one line from The Second Generation IS the plot of Dragons of Deceit.
Of course, Dougan also says that, according to the tale, the Graygem was stolen by gnomes and not a human female. When asked which story is true, however, he answers, "Neither". That's an important detail because he doesn't say the stories are false. Instead, he implies that each contains elements of truth and elements of fiction. In other words, the stories are fragments of a larger history rather than mutually exclusive accounts. Destinies appears to provide the truth behind one of those fragments while leaving room for the rest of the story to unfold.
Later in the same conversation, Dougan says that Reorx eventually lost the Graygem in an immortal game of bones with Morgion, adding the intriguing phrase, "with the Graygem as the stakes and..." That unfinished thought is significant. The ellipsis strongly suggests that there is far more to the story than Dougan is revealing, and that whatever followed was important enough to leave deliberately unexplained. Given how much attention is devoted to the Graygem's journey throughout the saga, that omission is relevant and left up to the reader's imagination. Those three dots would make a good story or adventure hook. It's not unreasonable to think that if anyone could un-fridge the Graygem from the Infinity Box and a "vortex that is vaster and deeper than time", it would be a couple of gods.
My reading is that the immortal game of bones occurred sometime during that 21-year gap after 359 AC, essentially after Destinies. Whatever happened in that story ultimately resulted in the Graygem appearing on the Isle of Gargath by 380 AC, where The Second Generation picks up the thread after it had been supposedly fridged by the Infinity Box and the "vortex".
In summary:
359 - Destina steals the Graygem from Thorbardin and Dougan hammers a flaw into it (as per Dragons of Deceit).
359 - the Graygem is fridged in the Infinity Box and the "vortex" (as per Dragons of Eternity).
Some time in the next 21 years - Morgion challenges Reorx to an immortal game of bones (as per The Second Generation). The subsequent result of the game un-fridged the Graygem (as per the ellipsis also known as the reader's imagination).
380 - The Greygem reappears on the Isle of Gargath (as per The Second Generation).
Spring 382 - Majere Boys and Dougan retrieve the Graygem from the Isle of Gargath. Dougan loses it again in another game of bones (as per The Second Generation).
Summer 382 - The Graygem washes ashore and is found by a simple-minded fisherman. The Irda steal it from the fisherman (as per Dragons of Summer Flame).
Summer 383 - The Irda hammer a spike into the Graygem's flaw splitting it open (as per Dragons of Summer Flame).
I don't see the disconnect. None of this is mental gymnastics nor does the fitting of the pieces need to be justified to make the novels work. All of it is written.
There's also Astinus's explanation to Tas at the end of Dragons of Eternity. Astinus describes what he sees as a past that was, a past that wasn't, and a future that will not happen. The "past that was" is the original history of Chronicles and Legends. The "past that wasn't" is the alternate timeline created by the events of Destinies. And the "future that will not happen" is the future that would have resulted from that altered timeline.
The wording is important. The "past that wasn't" leads directly to the "future that will not happen." If the future produced by the Destinies timeline is explicitly identified as the future that will not happen, then the future that WILL happen is the one that follows the restored timeline. That future is already known to us through The Second Generation, Dragons of Summer Flame, The War of Souls, and the novels that follow and those in-between. This is Astinus actually telling the reader what the intent of Destinies was.
To me, Destinies doesn't erase that future. It fills in missing pieces of the Graygem's history while preserving AND confirming the timeline that was already established.
If they decide they want to continue, however, the natural next step isn't Destinies. Even though Destinies is chronologically next, it's The Second Generation and Dragons of Summer Flame that would be next. The issue is that Destinies itself assumes familiarity with material beyond the original six novels. There are references, characters, and plot points that draw from The Second Generation, Dragons of Summer Flame, The Raistlin Chronicles, and The Lost Chronicles. The authors clearly expect readers to recognize those elements as assumed knowledge and included those novels on their list of references.
So if the argument is that Destinies reduces the buy-in required to understand the setting, I'm not convinced. In practice, a reader going directly from Legends to Destinies would miss a considerable amount of context for Destinies to work. If Destinies becomes essential reading, then the "Holy Six" effectively expands into something closer to a "Holy Sixteen". And once you're there, adding the War of Souls trilogy and Dark Disciple isn't much of a leap, bringing the core narrative closer to a "Holy Twenty-two".
That's why I don't see Destinies as a justification for reducing Dragonlance to six novels. Either Chronicles and Legends are sufficient on their own, or readers who want to continue should be encouraged to follow the story's existing progression.
To me, the stronger argument is that Destinies highlights the need to make those intervening books accessible again. If new readers are expected to understand references to The Second Generation, Dragons of Summer Flame, The Raistlin Chronicles, and The Lost Chronicles, then those books should be readily available. That's just another reason why I'm advocating to see a The Second Generation/Dragons of Summer Flame omnibus released in the same style as the black Chronicles omnibus and the gold Legends omnibus, along with omnibus editions of The Raistlin Chronicles and The Lost Chronicles. These books have been out of print for years (now decades), and making them available again would do far more to help new readers than attempting to reposition Destinies as a direct continuation of Legends.
I still want to see a The Second Generation/Dragons of Summer Flame Omnibus.
From Dragons of Summer Flame:
"The Decider placed the spike's tip at the gem's flaw."
This flaw was put into the Greygem by Dougan when he set it in the necklace in Dragons of Deceit. This is the only explaination we get as to where this flaw came from. Dragons of Summer Flame doesn't explain it. The most straightforward conclusion is that the events of Destinies are part of the same timeline that leads to Dragons of Summer Flame.
I don't think the future is "unwritten". It's already written, and we have the books to prove it and to demonstrate how these events connect.
The only real thing left to the reader is what happened to the Graygem after the end of Dragons of Eternity. Everything else lines up remarkably well with the established timeline.
We know that in the summer of 383 AC, the Irda split the Graygem, unleashing Chaos and begin the Chaos War. That's established in Dragons of Summer Flame and reaffirmed in Destinies. We know that in the previous summer in 382 AC, the Irda stole the Graygem from a simple-minded fisherman who had found it washed ashore. That's also straight from Dragons of Summer Flame.
Going back to a few months in the spring of 382 AC, Tanin, Sturm, and Palin Majere, along with Dougan Redhammer and a group of gnomes, rediscovered the Graygem on the Isle of Gargath. We're told in The Second Generation that the Graygem had already been on the island for two years. That places its arrival on Gargath in 380 AC.
The next known appearance of the Graygem before that is in 359 AC at the end of Dragons of Eternity, when it is sealed inside the Infinity Box and cast into "a magical vortex that is deeper and vaster than time."
That leaves a 21-year gap between 359 and 380 AC. The novels don't tell us exactly what happened during that period, but they do provide clues.
In The Second Generation, Dougan explains that, according to the dwarven story, Reorx gifted the Graygem to the dwarves before it was stolen. Dragons of Deceit effectively tells that story, explaining how the Graygem came to be in Thorbardin in the first place and how it was ultimately stolen by Destina. That one line from The Second Generation IS the plot of Dragons of Deceit.
Of course, Dougan also says that, according to the tale, the Graygem was stolen by gnomes and not a human female. When asked which story is true, however, he answers, "Neither". That's an important detail because he doesn't say the stories are false. Instead, he implies that each contains elements of truth and elements of fiction. In other words, the stories are fragments of a larger history rather than mutually exclusive accounts. Destinies appears to provide the truth behind one of those fragments while leaving room for the rest of the story to unfold.
Later in the same conversation, Dougan says that Reorx eventually lost the Graygem in an immortal game of bones with Morgion, adding the intriguing phrase, "with the Graygem as the stakes and..." That unfinished thought is significant. The ellipsis strongly suggests that there is far more to the story than Dougan is revealing, and that whatever followed was important enough to leave deliberately unexplained. Given how much attention is devoted to the Graygem's journey throughout the saga, that omission is relevant and left up to the reader's imagination. Those three dots would make a good story or adventure hook. It's not unreasonable to think that if anyone could un-fridge the Graygem from the Infinity Box and a "vortex that is vaster and deeper than time", it would be a couple of gods.
My reading is that the immortal game of bones occurred sometime during that 21-year gap after 359 AC, essentially after Destinies. Whatever happened in that story ultimately resulted in the Graygem appearing on the Isle of Gargath by 380 AC, where The Second Generation picks up the thread after it had been supposedly fridged by the Infinity Box and the "vortex".
In summary:
359 - Destina steals the Graygem from Thorbardin and Dougan hammers a flaw into it (as per Dragons of Deceit).
359 - the Graygem is fridged in the Infinity Box and the "vortex" (as per Dragons of Eternity).
Some time in the next 21 years - Morgion challenges Reorx to an immortal game of bones (as per The Second Generation). The subsequent result of the game un-fridged the Graygem (as per the ellipsis also known as the reader's imagination).
380 - The Greygem reappears on the Isle of Gargath (as per The Second Generation).
Spring 382 - Majere Boys and Dougan retrieve the Graygem from the Isle of Gargath. Dougan loses it again in another game of bones (as per The Second Generation).
Summer 382 - The Graygem washes ashore and is found by a simple-minded fisherman. The Irda steal it from the fisherman (as per Dragons of Summer Flame).
Summer 383 - The Irda hammer a spike into the Graygem's flaw splitting it open (as per Dragons of Summer Flame).
I don't see the disconnect. None of this is mental gymnastics nor does the fitting of the pieces need to be justified to make the novels work. All of it is written.
There's also Astinus's explanation to Tas at the end of Dragons of Eternity. Astinus describes what he sees as a past that was, a past that wasn't, and a future that will not happen. The "past that was" is the original history of Chronicles and Legends. The "past that wasn't" is the alternate timeline created by the events of Destinies. And the "future that will not happen" is the future that would have resulted from that altered timeline.
The wording is important. The "past that wasn't" leads directly to the "future that will not happen." If the future produced by the Destinies timeline is explicitly identified as the future that will not happen, then the future that WILL happen is the one that follows the restored timeline. That future is already known to us through The Second Generation, Dragons of Summer Flame, The War of Souls, and the novels that follow and those in-between. This is Astinus actually telling the reader what the intent of Destinies was.
To me, Destinies doesn't erase that future. It fills in missing pieces of the Graygem's history while preserving AND confirming the timeline that was already established.
I don't think Destinies should factor into the question of whether Dragonlance is the "Holy Six". If a new reader wants to experience only Chronicles and Legends, that's perfectly valid. Those six books tell a complete and satisfying story on their own. A reader can stop there and feel they've experienced enough of the Dragonlance saga.
If they decide they want to continue, however, the natural next step isn't Destinies. Even though Destinies is chronologically next, it's The Second Generation and Dragons of Summer Flame that would be next. The issue is that Destinies itself assumes familiarity with material beyond the original six novels. There are references, characters, and plot points that draw from The Second Generation, Dragons of Summer Flame, The Raistlin Chronicles, and The Lost Chronicles. The authors clearly expect readers to recognize those elements as assumed knowledge and included those novels on their list of references.
So if the argument is that Destinies reduces the buy-in required to understand the setting, I'm not convinced. In practice, a reader going directly from Legends to Destinies would miss a considerable amount of context for Destinies to work. If Destinies becomes essential reading, then the "Holy Six" effectively expands into something closer to a "Holy Sixteen". And once you're there, adding the War of Souls trilogy and Dark Disciple isn't much of a leap, bringing the core narrative closer to a "Holy Twenty-two".
That's why I don't see Destinies as a justification for reducing Dragonlance to six novels. Either Chronicles and Legends are sufficient on their own, or readers who want to continue should be encouraged to follow the story's existing progression.
To me, the stronger argument is that Destinies highlights the need to make those intervening books accessible again. If new readers are expected to understand references to The Second Generation, Dragons of Summer Flame, The Raistlin Chronicles, and The Lost Chronicles, then those books should be readily available. That's just another reason why I'm advocating to see a The Second Generation/Dragons of Summer Flame omnibus released in the same style as the black Chronicles omnibus and the gold Legends omnibus, along with omnibus editions of The Raistlin Chronicles and The Lost Chronicles. These books have been out of print for years (now decades), and making them available again would do far more to help new readers than attempting to reposition Destinies as a direct continuation of Legends.
Agreed.
I still want to see a The Second Generation/Dragons of Summer Flame Omnibus.
Last edited:
@Darth Fistandantilus you said intent. I said point. The point of the Destinies Trilogy was to confirm the chaos war/5th age timeline. To me it seems obvious. I never took it any other way
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