D&D General The Weave of Greyhawk

[Misanthrope Prime]

That said, a defiler who got shunted to another world, and was careful enough to not get caught until they'd built up a power base, could be a heck of a villain for an adventure. "There was hardly anything left to drain for power back on Athas, but I have a lush, thriving world to work with here! Surely I'm smarter than defilers that came before me, and won't pay the price for my hubris!"
And there would probably be some Red Wizards in Thay, or Black Robes among Krynn's wizards, who would be very interesting in learning the particulars of defiling magic.

With all the high magic shenanigans on Toril that don't exist on Athas I wouldn't be surprised if an enterprising defiler couldn't somehow hack the system, like cultivating a dank box under your bed of rapidly growing fungi that feed on free Faerzress energy then defiling them for your extra spell slots instead of a big beautiful oak that druids would care about.

That's assuming
A: Those agencies know what a defiler is
B: That a defiler has arrived in Toril
and C: That the identity and location of said defiler is known.
None of these are guaranteed to be true, at least right away. I think they'd be more likely to meet their end at the hands of adventurers who happened to come into conflict with them by chance before the bigger agencies learn of them, making the extra oomph they get from defiling a nasty surprise for the adventurers in question.

That honestly sounds like a totally wrapped up low to mid level campaign to me. Mystran priests or the emerald enclave hire your adventurers to investigate strange deserts that are popping up in otherwise fertile areas, thinking there might be some similarity to other artificial deserts on Toril like the Calim, Anauroch or Raurin deserts. The players track these spots, kill some summoned athasian creatures left behind, and then confront the defiler in his lair as the big bad boss when they transition to the next tier of play.

 

[Coroc]

With all the high magic shenanigans on Toril that don't exist on Athas I wouldn't be surprised if an enterprising defiler couldn't somehow hack the system, like cultivating a dank box under your bed of rapidly growing fungi that feed on free Faerzress energy then defiling them for your extra spell slots instead of a big beautiful oak that druids would care about.

Now that is some fusion, eh?

That honestly sounds like a totally wrapped up low to mid level campaign to me. Mystran priests or the emerald enclave hire your adventurers to investigate strange deserts that are popping up in otherwise fertile areas, thinking there might be some similarity to other artificial deserts on Toril like the Calim, Anauroch or Raurin deserts. The players track these spots, kill some summoned athasian creatures left behind, and then confront the defiler in his lair as the big bad boss when they transition to the next tier of play.

hm ok. Hunt the environment destroyer down!

No magic from fossil sources, make use of the weave mandatory!

 

[Tinker Gnome]

Krynn has the three Moons of Magic acting as a "Weave" for "Focused" arcane magic. Krynn also has its own magical energies that can be tapped into by Primal Sorcerers and Mystics.

So for Krynn it goes like this.

Focused Magic: Wizards and Clerics
Ambient Magic: Sorcerers and Mystics

All of this is going from the 3.5 sourcebooks.

I would rule a Wizard from another world could work their magic on Krynn but maybe would need a few Spellcraft rolls to figure it out first. Clerics would have their magic granted by a similar Krynnish deity to their own. E.X. A Cleric of Gond would get their spells granted by Reorx.

 

[ErisIndomina]

Clerics would have their magic granted by a similar Krynnish deity to their own. E.X. A Cleric of Gond would get their spells granted by Reorx.

I might rule instead that a deity might gain a foothold in the setting if one of their Clerics goes there, and they they might expand their influence in the setting if enough native folks start following them as a result.
For example, if a cleric of Selune winds up in Athas, sporting magic of healing and cooling night that doesn't rely on defiling at all, Selune's cult might spread like wildfire beneath the Dark Sun.

 

[Coroc]

I might rule instead that a deity might gain a foothold in the setting if one of their Clerics goes there, and they they might expand their influence in the setting if enough native folks start following them as a result.
For example, if a cleric of Selune winds up in Athas, sporting magic of healing and cooling night that doesn't rely on defiling at all, Selune's cult might spread like wildfire beneath the Dark Sun.

whew that sounds a bit like ... messiah comes again. Well Krynns lore had someting like that, do you remember? They had no clerical magic for a long time because the gods were angry. Goldmoon brought back clerical magic.

 

[Questianor]

I think if a Defiler ended up in Toril, you'd have various agencies including those associated with Mystra hire adventurers to "Go kill this destructive wizard from a ruined world who will bring doom to us all, don't ask any questions, just kill them."

I would wager defiling wouldn't at all on Toril, as arcane magic use is governed by the Weave and Mystra would prevent it. There are ways for arcane spellcasters to get around the Weave- maybe you could defile using the Shadow Weave of Shar. Arguably it'd even be a good thematic fit.

In the original Spelljammer there were rules about spellcasting in other crystal spheres, but if I recall correctly (and maybe I don't) they mostly only affected clerics who might end up in a sphere where their god isn't worshipped. Arcane spellcasters just kept casting as normal, so I assume they just naturally adapt to the local metaphysics. There were no ruels about a defiler might make the jump because the guidance regarding Athas was "you probably can't get there and vice versa".

Planescape did have some rules sbout arcane spellcasting on other planes, which usually had plane-specific rules that made spells stronger or weaker and some uncastable. There were items called spell keys shich were highly sought after and could you let get around the usual rules of a plane and cast spells you might otherwise not be able to. Usually this was for spells that required access to a plane that was otherwise inaccessible from the one you're on, liking using an ethereal spell in an outer plane. Perhaps a brilliant Athasian mage could devise something like a spell key that lets them continue to draw power for spells by defiling instead of needing to rely on these strange gods and their weaves. Trying to get around the gods like that on Toril usually doesn't end well though.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I would wager defiling wouldn't at all on Toril, as arcane magic use is governed by the Weave and Mystra would prevent it. There are ways for arcane spellcasters to get around the Weave- maybe you could defile using the Shadow Weave of Shar. Arguably it'd even be a good thematic fit.

In the original Spelljammer there were rules about spellcasting in other crystal spheres, but if I recall correctly (and maybe I don't) they mostly only affected clerics who might end up in a sphere where their god isn't worshipped. Arcane spellcasters just kept casting as normal, so I assume they just naturally adapt to the local metaphysics. There were no ruels about a defiler might make the jump because the guidance regarding Athas was "you probably can't get there and vice versa".

Planescape did have some rules sbout arcane spellcasting on other planes, which usually had plane-specific rules that made spells stronger or weaker and some uncastable. There were items called spell keys shich were highly sought after and could you let get around the usual rules of a plane and cast spells you might otherwise not be able to. Usually this was for spells that required access to a plane that was otherwise inaccessible from the one you're on, liking using an ethereal spell in an outer plane. Perhaps a brilliant Athasian mage could devise something like a spell key that lets them continue to draw power for spells by defiling instead of needing to rely on these strange gods and their weaves. Trying to get around the gods like that on Toril usually doesn't end well though.

They mostly dropped the rules about certain spells not working on certain planes now. 5e Planescape you can teleport within Sigil all you want (but no teleportation to and from the outside), summon monsters that are in Sigil to your location, contact your patrons and so on. Losing spell caster levels, + magical bonuses from your magic weapons and all those other rules were (take your pick) dropped because they weren't fun, go against 5e design and were too complicated.

As for the theoretical idea of a Defiler being somewhere else, I say they still defile because it's interesting. Either they're forced to not defile, or they become of very obvious villain to kill. In places like Toril where certain deities have more control over magic, I imagine that those deities will know there's a defiler on their world, and will send people like adventurers to kill the defiler.

 

[Voadam]

In the original Spelljammer there were rules about spellcasting in other crystal spheres, but if I recall correctly (and maybe I don't) they mostly only affected clerics who might end up in a sphere where their god isn't worshipped. Arcane spellcasters just kept casting as normal, so I assume they just naturally adapt to the local metaphysics. There were no ruels about a defiler might make the jump because the guidance regarding Athas was "you probably can't get there and vice versa".

Spelljammer was very punitive on casters in practice, to spelljam for a day it used all your spellcasting ability, you basically were down to item use when you were powering the ship. It further limited divine casters by limiting big cleric spells (4th and higher mostly) to being granted in spheres their specific god was established in. I don't remember any specific arcane limitations either other than general things like phlogiston being flammable and such.

Spelljammer in its original boxed set rules did not talk about defiler interactions or Athas as a crystal sphere because Dark Sun did not come out until 1991, two years after Spelljammer did.

 

[Tinker Gnome]

If I ran Spelljammer I would just have the Helm be usable by anyone. I never liked the idea of needing to have a spellcaster hooked up all the time.

 

[Questianor]

Spelljammer in its original boxed set rules did not talk about defiler interactions or Athas as a crystal sphere because Dark Sun did not come out until 1991, two years after Spelljammer did.

True, but The Complete Spacefarer's Handbook (1992) briefly mentions Athas, if only to say it's not a place anybody spelljams to or from.

They mostly dropped the rules about certain spells not working on certain planes now. 5e Planescape you can teleport within Sigil all you want (but no teleportation to and from the outside), summon monsters that are in Sigil to your location, contact your patrons and so on. Losing spell caster levels, + magical bonuses from your magic weapons and all those other rules were (take your pick) dropped because they weren't fun, go against 5e design and were too complicated.

As for the theoretical idea of a Defiler being somewhere else, I say they still defile because it's interesting. Either they're forced to not defile, or they become of very obvious villain to kill. In places like Toril where certain deities have more control over magic, I imagine that those deities will know there's a defiler on their world, and will send people like adventurers to kill the defiler.

I agree that those rules were mostly pretty onboxious and unfun as a gameplay mechanic, though narratively I felt they added a lot of flavor. I like the idea of world-hopping spellcasters having to adapt to or learn about the local metaphysics, especially if it differs significantly from their home in ways that logically should affect their powers, but in practice this usually looks like a lot of frustrating and unevenly distributed debuffs.

A defiler stirring up trouble on another world would make for a great villain, so agreed that it could be probably be allowed on the grounds that it's cool. I think more than just Mystra would be mad about it too; unlike Athas, Toril has a plethora of nature deities who will object strongly to the defiling.