Things change. . .

[jdrakeh]

Way back when in the days of yore, magic was plentiful and life was good. This was was the time of heroes. Today, old magic is but a memory to the world's population, save for those of us who knew it then. It is a lost art. . .

How exactly do you model something like this in D&D? Out of the box, D&D assumes that every basic tenet of the rules is statis -- it always has been, always will be, and always is. What happens when you throw that out of whack. That is, what happens when you assume that the Age of Heroes (and high magic) has an end.

This thread is inspired, in part, by the film Krull. In this movie, the only people who wield powerful magic are The Widow of the Web and The Emerald Seer. And their power is closely tied to physical fetishes and certain sites or names, indicating that their power is fundamentally different than that of folks like Ergo (The Magnificent).

What's more, despite their powers being nigh-godlike, the Emerald Seer and The Widow of the Web are also bound by some heavy restraints (again, indicating that their brand of magic isn't the same as Ergo's). In many ways, these characters and Ynyr (The Ancient One) seem more akin to demi-gods than normal people.

The Ancient One (Ynyr) does not use any magic, though he knows things that seem to have been forgotten by the rest of the world (such as the prophecy of the Beast's demise). At any rate, all the past of all three of individuals in question is examined briefly in the film, indicating that they were all once mighty heroes in their own right.

So, how do you set up a generation-based magical divide in D&D. Or, more correctly, how would you tackle this kind of divide? That is, how would you set up a world where old (ultra-powerful but very limited) magic is known only to a few heroes of the past, while new (bog standard D&D magic) is known to heroes of the present. How do you chart that kind of change?

Typical D&D spell progression makes it tough, because the older you are, the more levels you have, and magical power in D&D is (by the RAW) directly linked to how many spells you know and can cast, whereas people like the Emerald Seer of Krull only demonstrate a few abilities, though ones that easily overshadow your run of the mill magic (as cast by Ergo).

Help me, ENWorld!

 

[LostSoul]

Templates, Prestige Classes, or NPC classes.

Or you could make them monsters with special abilities.

 

[Griffith Dragonlake]

In Grymwurld™ I've treated magic like an antedilluvian technology associated with lost gods and forgotten races. It is still possible to learn bit and scraps of magic through the discovery of prehistoric tablets written in forgotten languages (but succeptable by Read Magic). In game terms:

Ability score requirements for spell level = 11 + (2 × level of spell). This means that 9th level wizard spells require an Intelligence of 29. Not humanly possible. Whereas a venerable Grey Elf Lich or Vampire qualifies.

Spellcasters may attempt to cast spells off of scrolls that are higher level than they can normally cast. If they fail, they go insane.

If this is not enough, change the caster classes so that only 0-level spells are available at 1st level, 1st level spells at 3rd level, 2nd level spells at 4th level et cetera. Some sort of compensation is required. Personally I prefer to allow more spells per day as I'd rather have my casters cast more spells per day even if they are of less power. I also prefer playing spellcasters who can cast a spell each round, albeit weaker spells. I have not seen the Warlock class but from what I've heard, something along those lines would work.

A step further is to make all spellcasters prestige (or advanced) classes like d20 Modern Arcana (see Modern SRD).

All in all, this allow you to have NPCs with godlike intelligence, charisma, or wisdom casting very high level spells but the lesser mortals have to content themselves with lower level spells. See my signature for my magical Mediæval wizard who delves into antedilluvian occult secrets that mortals where not meant to know.

 

[Storm Raven]

This thread is inspired, in part, by the film Krull. In this movie, the only people who wield powerful magic are The Widow of the Web and The Emerald Seer. And their power is closely tied to physical fetishes and certain sites or names, indicating that their power is fundamentally different than that of folks like Ergo (The Magnificent).

What's more, despite their powers being nigh-godlike, the Emerald Seer and The Widow of the Web are also bound by some heavy restraints (again, indicating that their brand of magic isn't the same as Ergo's). In many ways, these characters and Ynyr (The Ancient One) seem more akin to demi-gods than normal people.

The Ancient One (Ynyr) does not use any magic, though he knows things that seem to have been forgotten by the rest of the world (such as the prophecy of the Beast's demise). At any rate, all the past of all three of individuals in question is examined briefly in the film, indicating that they were all once mighty heroes in their own right.

So, how do you set up a generation-based magical divide in D&D. Or, more correctly, how would you tackle this kind of divide? That is, how would you set up a world where old (ultra-powerful but very limited) magic is known only to a few heroes of the past, while new (bog standard D&D magic) is known to heroes of the present. How do you chart that kind of change?

Typical D&D spell progression makes it tough, because the older you are, the more levels you have, and magical power in D&D is (by the RAW) directly linked to how many spells you know and can cast, whereas people like the Emerald Seer of Krull only demonstrate a few abilities, though ones that easily overshadow your run of the mill magic (as cast by Ergo).

Make spellcasting classes off-limits to PCs, or limit them to, say, the warlock, hexblade, or even the adept class, making most magical effects beyond their reach. Older NPCs can be wizards and sorcerers and clerics and so on, but PCs and younger NPCs cannot, they just don't have the training, and can't find it without significant investment of time and resources finding a teacher and required materials. Limit the spell selections of older NPC spellcasters to things that match their chosen "theme". Prohibit PCs taking Item Creation feats without access to particular resources (mystic tomes and so on) to limit adding magic items to the campaign.

That should do it.

 

[Voadam]

Use a different source of magic for the elder age.

Narrative stuff restricted to certain NPCs or use an alt magic system for them (psionics, rituals from Relics and Rituals or Spellbound, Sovereign Stone, Wheel of Time, a d20 superheroes game superpower system, etc.).

Elder powerful magics whose practitioners are long gone are a great story resource for things like dungeons or wierd magic items that do not fit in the craft wondrous items rules.

 

[jdrakeh]

Templates, Prestige Classes, or NPC classes.

Or you could make them monsters with special abilities.

Well, except none of those things trump the default power progression of D&D in regard to magic, which is the real issue here. In D&D, the higher your level, the more spells and powers you have access to (regardless of Prestige Class or Template). The need here is to create a way that bigger means powerful without assuming an ever-expanding repetoire of spells or powers. Or, a system that doesn't equate power with volume.

 

[jdrakeh]

Use a different source of magic for the elder age.

Narrative stuff restricted to certain NPCs or use an alt magic system for them (psionics, rituals from Relics and Rituals or Spellbound, Sovereign Stone, Wheel of Time, a d20 superheroes game superpower system, etc.).

Elder powerful magics whose practitioners are long gone are a great story resource for things like dungeons or wierd magic items that do not fit in the craft wondrous items rules.

Yeah, that was my initial thought, though I honestly couldn't think of a d20-based spell system that doesn't equate power with volume (see above). The higher your level in most of those systems (with the possible exception of a few superhero systems), the more powers/spells you get.

I'm looking for some way to bestow big power in small packages, which is where I'm hitting a wall. Rituals will do it, though I don't want ritualistic magic. While the Emerald Seer's power relied largely on proximity to emeralds, for example, it wasn't in any way ritualistic. It was more like default high-level D&D magic with particular limitations built-in.

 

[Voadam]

Yeah, that was my initial thought, though I honestly couldn't think of a d20-based spell system that doesn't equate power with volume (see above). The higher your level in most of those systems (with the possible exception of a few superhero systems), the more powers/spells you get.

I'm looking for some way to bestow big power in small packages, which is where I'm hitting a wall. Rituals will do it, though I don't want ritualistic magic. While the Emerald Seer's power relied largely on proximity to emeralds, for example, it wasn't in any way ritualistic. It was more like default high-level D&D magic with particular limitations built-in.

Superpowers with a face change to make them Magic I'd think then. They generally just get more powerful instead of getting a plethora of them. Four Color to Fantasy, Deeds Not Words, Mutants and Masterminds, Blood and Vigilance, Vigilance, Power Corrupts Unlimited.

I forget if Elements of Magic allows for on the fly casting without learning individual spells. That type of system would be another way to go. Mongoose's Chaos Mage as well perhaps (from the Encyclopedia Arcane and Quintessential books).

 

[jdrakeh]

Make spellcasting classes off-limits to PCs, or limit them to, say, the warlock, hexblade, or even the adept class, making most magical effects beyond their reach. Older NPCs can be wizards and sorcerers and clerics and so on, but PCs and younger NPCs cannot, they just don't have the training, and can't find it without significant investment of time and resources finding a teacher and required materials. Limit the spell selections of older NPC spellcasters to things that match their chosen "theme". Prohibit PCs taking Item Creation feats without access to particular resources (mystic tomes and so on) to limit adding magic items to the campaign.

That should do it.

Admittedly, this would be the easiest way to do it, though I think that the arbitrary limitation of spell selection (and then, the narrowing it down to two or three spells in the vein of the source material) might really put off players. What I need is some way to limit the number of powers available without limiting the potential for possessed powers to be awesome. I think that d20 Slayers might be a decent place to start, as it gives a bit of both.

 

[jdrakeh]

In Grymwurld™ I've treated magic like an antedilluvian technology associated with lost gods and forgotten races. It is still possible to learn bit and scraps of magic through the discovery of prehistoric tablets written in forgotten languages (but succeptable by Read Magic). In game terms:

Ability score requirements for spell level = 11 + (2 × level of spell). This means that 9th level wizard spells require an Intelligence of 29. Not humanly possible. Whereas a venerable Grey Elf Lich or Vampire qualifies.

Spellcasters may attempt to cast spells off of scrolls that are higher level than they can normally cast. If they fail, they go insane.

If this is not enough, change the caster classes so that only 0-level spells are available at 1st level, 1st level spells at 3rd level, 2nd level spells at 4th level et cetera. Some sort of compensation is required. Personally I prefer to allow more spells per day as I'd rather have my casters cast more spells per day even if they are of less power. I also prefer playing spellcasters who can cast a spell each round, albeit weaker spells. I have not seen the Warlock class but from what I've heard, something along those lines would work.

A step further is to make all spellcasters prestige (or advanced) classes like d20 Modern Arcana (see Modern SRD).

All in all, this allow you to have NPCs with godlike intelligence, charisma, or wisdom casting very high level spells but the lesser mortals have to content themselves with lower level spells. See my signature for my magical Mediæval wizard who delves into antedilluvian occult secrets that mortals where not meant to know.

I like the idea, though it's really not what I'm looking for, as it still equates a bounty of spells/powers with being high level. That said, it gets the divide between neophyts and practiced masters down well. The problem that I'm looking at is less a division of this nature than it is of two totally different kinds (i.e., systems) of magic, though.